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Old 30 Dec 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3873161)   #2526
CroftPilgrim
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Does pondering if PMR and JP will both be at Sprout count as intelligent discussion?
Yes it does. But many seem to be loving the fact that the team is struggling and that Warren is bankrupt etc etc. Some people really don't want them on the grid it seems.
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 14:33 (Ref:3873162)   #2527
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Originally Posted by CroftPilgrim View Post
. Some people really don't want them on the grid it seems.
I don't mind them on the grid if they had a proper car, not this boxer monster


they are either too slow or too fast , ther eis no middle ground with them and supposedly rules have been tweeked that nobody else can build such cars
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 14:42 (Ref:3873163)   #2528
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Well the car is within the rules, just like the Alfa 155 Silverstone or the Audi Quattro 4wd, so that’s that then
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 17:24 (Ref:3873183)   #2529
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They'll be on the grid, but I see a repeat of the last two seasons: the car will go well at some tracks and be abysmal during the first half of the season. If Scott had his priorities right two years ago then that car would have been better developed - instead he choose to run too many vehicles and spread resources too thinly and finances then prevented expenditure on development. Mind you if JP hadn't been so damn cocky about the advantages the car had then TOCA might not have been so effective in mitigating those advantages. It is what it is. Ash will get the best out of the car, his teammate will not.
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 19:26 (Ref:3873191)   #2530
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Well at least hopefully JP will be in a FWD that actually gets developed
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 21:52 (Ref:3873206)   #2531
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
I don't mind them on the grid if they had a proper car, not this boxer monster
I doubt this would've bothered you if Plato hadn't been involved in the project...
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 00:34 (Ref:3873218)   #2532
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Scott back in his own chair...
Wonder where JP has taken his backing to Vauxhall or Ford....
Does JP still have backing?

If you were a certain specialist insurance company, would you stick with BMR, and the driver with the most race wins last season, or would you follow a driver who only finished in the top 15 four times out of thirty?
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 03:08 (Ref:3873230)   #2533
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Does JP still have backing?

If you were a certain specialist insurance company, would you stick with BMR, and the driver with the most race wins last season, or would you follow a driver who only finished in the top 15 four times out of thirty?
Your argument is invalid
Who has the greatest number of wins on course to break a ton,
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 06:44 (Ref:3873236)   #2534
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Depends. If Plato really can rediscover some of that magic with FWD, he's worth taking. Otherwise, it might be the end of the road for him, just because he's no longer fashionable
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 07:23 (Ref:3873238)   #2535
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
I don't mind them on the grid if they had a proper car, not this boxer monster
The combination of your username and your aversion to flat-configuration engines, amuses me!

If the Subaru change to a FWD layout, with a transaxle style having differential in front of the transmssion (like the FWD version of the Audi A4 super tourer, or like the old Alfasud motor car), would that satisfy you?

In that case the fore-aft weight distribution should be quite similar to the other FWD cars, and the lower COG of the boxer can always be corrected with ballast placed up high.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 07:30 (Ref:3873239)   #2536
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
if JP hadn't been so damn cocky about the advantages the car had then TOCA might not have been so effective in mitigating those advantages.
Where is the engine placed? At the standard location or jammed back up against the firewall?


This picture with the engine uninstalled gives no clues, unfortunately.

If the engine is placed all the way towards the front of the car, at it's standard location, I don't see how having a two-cylinder long engine gives them any great advantage.

Notably the Subaru BRZ (even though it's RWD) does not have the engine all the way back against the firewall, as there is no room to fit the steering column in-between the flat engine and the chassis rails. So instead (unlike a BMW), it steers the front wheels from behind (instead of in front of) the front axle, and the engine sits in front of the steering rack.

Obviously Subaru do not have an inline four engine (unlike the Audi or BMW), so it seems crazy to be against them just for using a layout that is also common to Porsche and many others!
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 07:48 (Ref:3873241)   #2537
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Where is the engine placed? At the standard location or jammed back up against the firewall?


This picture with the engine uninstalled gives no clues, unfortunately.

If the engine is placed all the way towards the front of the car, at it's standard location, I don't see how having a two-cylinder long engine gives them any great advantage.

Notably the Subaru BRZ (even though it's RWD) does not have the engine all the way back against the firewall, as there is no room to fit the steering column in-between the flat engine and the chassis rails. So instead (unlike a BMW), it steers the front wheels from behind (instead of in front of) the front axle, and the engine sits in front of the steering rack.

Obviously Subaru do not have an inline four engine (unlike the Audi or BMW), so it seems crazy to be against them just for using a layout that is also common to Porsche and many others!
JP discussed this a while back in an interview, and explained part of the weight distribution that is not just CoG height.

Basically, he said the engine is almost under his seat, and when the engine bay is open, people have thought it is missing!

The regulations stipulate a minimum propshaft and bellhousing dimension, referenced to the rear axle. When these are applied to the Levorg, the rear half of the engine is further rearward than the pedal box.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 10:13 (Ref:3873260)   #2538
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Robin Marriott should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That picture is especially unhelpful as it’s a rear subframe in shot.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 12:28 (Ref:3873271)   #2539
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In simple terms the engine was mounted as low down and far back into the car as physically possible - all done within the rules. When you open the hood of a 911 there is a small suitcase sized stowage area - not dissimilar when you open the hood of the BTCC groveL.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 13:41 (Ref:3873284)   #2540
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Your argument is invalid
Who has the greatest number of wins on course to break a ton,
He won't break 100 wins if he hasn't got a drive because his sponsors have deserted him.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 14:23 (Ref:3873297)   #2541
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
In simple terms the engine was mounted as low down and far back into the car as physically possible - all done within the rules.
Very interesting. One would have thought it would be trivial to move the engine back to it's factory position (assuming there is space for the TOCA suspension and steering components to fit around the unusually wide Subaru engine?).

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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
The regulations stipulate a minimum propshaft and bellhousing dimension, referenced to the rear axle. When these are applied to the Levorg, the rear half of the engine is further rearward than the pedal box.
Sounds like a loophole that has been created due to the Levorg's unusually long wheelbase compared to, say, the BMW 1 series hatch.

I would have thought that would be easily addressed with a clarification to the rules?

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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Basically, he said the engine is almost under his seat, and when the engine bay is open, people have thought it is missing!
Simply show Team BMR an official Subaru picture of where the engine normally lives (most certainly not within the wheelbase of the vehicle) and politely insist they are having a laugh -- would that do the trick?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 31 Dec 2018 at 14:37.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 15:14 (Ref:3873302)   #2542
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Sounds like a loophole that has been created due to the Levorg's unusually long wheelbase compared to, say, the BMW 1 series hatch.

I would have thought that would be easily addressed with a clarification to the rules?
The car was homologated with the engine where it currently is, so a clarification to the rules would only affect new models to the grid.

If specifying a longer prop or bell housing, then the other RWD cars would be impacted too.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 16:05 (Ref:3873310)   #2543
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billy bleach should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbilly bleach should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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That picture is especially unhelpful as it’s a rear subframe in shot.
Ha ha ha Brilliant!
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 16:45 (Ref:3873318)   #2544
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He won't break 100 wins if he hasn't got a drive because his sponsors have deserted him.
Let's see which car has Adrian Flux on it.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 19:32 (Ref:3873349)   #2545
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Sounds like a loophole that has been created due to the Levorg's unusually long wheelbase compared to, say, the BMW 1 series hatch.
However...

The wheelbase on the Levorg is 2650mm
The wheelbase on the 1 series is *drumroll*... 2690mm

The reason the Levorg was built was because the regulations meant there was a loophole which favoured it and only it.

Any other car with a longitudinal engine on the market was a straight 4, meaning more weight further forward.

If you put the boxer in the BMW, it’d have an advantage over the 4 cylinder.

Plato saying the engine was under his seat is just him selling the sizzle again, it’s nowhere near that far back in reality, it’s just that because it’s (just over) half the length of a straight 4, almost all of the engine is behind the front axle, which is not the case on the BMW.
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Old 31 Dec 2018, 19:47 (Ref:3873350)   #2546
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Let's see which car has Adrian Flux on it.
I'm not sure Flux are continuing, unless you/ others know different. Expecting Silverline branding to be prominent.
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Old 1 Jan 2019, 05:53 (Ref:3873384)   #2547
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The wheelbase on the Levorg is 2650mm
The wheelbase on the 1 series is *drumroll*... 2690mm
Interesting! My mistake.

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The reason the Levorg was built was because the regulations meant there was a loophole which favoured it and only it.

Any other car with a longitudinal engine on the market was a straight 4, meaning more weight further forward.
So the rear of the boxer engine is in the same place as the rear of the inline-four engine?

In that case, I don't see any problem whatsoever. What a lot of fuss about nothing!

It's the same reason the Alfa Romeo Giulia uses a V6 twin turbo instead of BMW M3's straight six twin turbo, the same reason Nissan's GTR changed from a straight six to a V6. The Lancia coupes with V4 engines were legendary.

It's just common sense to use the packaging advantages of a two-bank engine (to offset the penalties of extra cost and weight), and it seems absurd the others would be upset about that!?

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If you put the boxer in the BMW, it’d have an advantage over the 4 cylinder.
Except, obviously, unlike Subaru, BMW famously use inline engines. So a boxer in a BMW wouldn't make sense.

Heck BMW even use an inline six cylinder engine despite the packaging advantages of the V6 engines used by their rivals (Jaguar, Alfa, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis etc)! So it would be absurd if the BMW entry suddenly had a flat-four or V4.

I take it, if WSR wanted to they could commission an independent British engine builder (Judd, AER, MCT, Gibson, Cosworth etc) to build them a custom V4 engine to use in their BMWs? [I presume TOCA requires the engines to be production based, which would scupper this, however? I guess they are worried everyone will soon turn up with a lightweight gear-driven cam racing engine in their "touring" car.]

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 1 Jan 2019 at 06:00.
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Old 1 Jan 2019, 11:00 (Ref:3873417)   #2548
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In simple terms the engine was mounted as low down and far back into the car as physically possible - all done within the rules. When you open the hood of a 911 there is a small suitcase sized stowage area - not dissimilar when you open the hood of the BTCC groveL.
The Car is an an anomaly and one I guess TOCA regret being built.
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Old 1 Jan 2019, 11:21 (Ref:3873419)   #2549
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The Car is an an anomaly and one I guess TOCA regret being built.
A BTCC without Subaru would be poorer for it.
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Old 1 Jan 2019, 11:28 (Ref:3873420)   #2550
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They’ve actually boosted the series by giving us a champion in Ash Sutton
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