Best German drivers (obvious aside!)

[chunterer]

Alan's mention of Bellof at the '84 Monaco GP made me think about Schumacher's rein at the top and until he came along pickings were rather thin for our friends in Germany.

Leaving him out, who else has had the talent, speed, and presense over the years? This doesn't have to be restricted to F1 btw!

Drivers that stick out to me are Bellof, Manfred Winkelhock, Bernd Schnieder from recent times, Jochen Mass and Rolf Stommelen from the 70's.

Then you can go way back when there were many drivers with much skill like Bernd Rosemeyer, Karl Kling, 'Taffy' Von Trips at the top of the scale as it were.

I'd like members to talk more about these guys and also offer up any other names.

[davyboy]

Rudolf Carraciola has got to be one of the greatest drivers ever... not just German drivers.

[Alan Raine]

Is it possibly that the German manufacturers such as Porsche, BMW and Merc etc were more interested in Sports, GT and Saloon car racing in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

[davyboy]

Stefan Bellof was a driver of prodigious talent. Ken Tyrrell rated him as one of the greatest pilots that he'd seen, however as John T. said in the other thread, Bellof only knew one way to drive and that was totally flat out. In the 'economy run' days of Group C, Bellof often ignored fuel strategies thereby making his team-mates look far inferior as they tried to keep the gas in check through the length of a 1000Km endurance race. Sadly, many people agreed that it would have only been a matter of time before he would have killed himself and tragically that's what happened as he clashed with Jacky Ickx at Eau Rouge behind the wheel of the Schiesser Porsche. A few years before that he had a monster off in an F2 car at the same place. I think it was a Maurer or something. Its often said that Bellof could have been the great rival to Senna in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Though it makes for a wonderful ideal, I really don't think he would have ever adjusted his all or nothing style to match the consistency of the Brazilian... but as a raw driving talent goes... he was one of the greatest.

[robert77]

"Smokin" Jo Winklehock, maybe the best German Touring/Sportscar driver, certainly that I've had the pleasure of watching drive a race car.

[ensign14]

Bernd Rosemeyer...a Villeneuve (G) for his generation. Better than Der Regenmeister?

Hermann Lang...would have been a legend but for WW2.

[John Turner]

As I look up from where I'm typing this note, prominent on a wall of motor racing posters is one by James Dugdale, entitled 'The Titans', depicting Rudolf Caracciola in W125, at a wet Nurburgring, in 1937. It describes him as 'the most successul Grand Prix driver of the 1930's'. However, during 1938, he was beginning to be troubled by Hermann Lang and by 1939, Lang was, arguably, in the ascendancy. As Ensign 14 says, a great motor racing career cut short by the War. There is a good article about Lang, by Mark Hughes, in the February issue of MotorSport.

[Alan Raine]

I have been racking my brains but can't think of any other German F1 drivers of any note other than those already mentioned.

The Bellof/Jacky Ickx link goes further than the Spa accident. I think Ickx was the Clerk of the Course at Monaco in 84 when Bellof could have won and it was possibly his decision to stop the race.

[Alan Raine]

Finally thought of one. Hans Joachim Stuck had a reasonable F1 career before his Saloon and Sports Car exploits. He was also cracking in F2 as well.

[Marcus Mussa]

Apart from those already mentioned I would vote for Walter Rohrl - pretty handy on and off the track

[robert77]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Finally thought of one. Hans Joachim Stuck had a reasonable F1 career before his Saloon and Sports Car exploits. He was also cracking in F2 as well.

Not only that, his father was a pretty handy Grand Prix driver and hill climber too! He held the outright hill record at Shelsley Walsh back in July 1930 in a 3500cc Austro-Daimler, which stood until September 1933. Unfortunately he couldn't repeat the feat in 1936 in his GP Auto Union on his return to the hill, as it was too wet.

[Fiorentina 1]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Rudolf Carraciola has got to be one of the greatest drivers ever... not just German drivers.

Exactly! Best German driver, Carraciola. Without a doubt!

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by moxey77

Not only that, his father was a pretty handy Grand Prix driver and hill climber too!

However his father was Austrian.

(At least that's what he told all the organizers post-war when German drivers were banned from international competition...)

[Alan Raine]

There has been a lot of (very) good Austrian F1 drivers who were doing extremely well when perhaps the German drivers weren't. Lauda, Berger etc.

[ensign14]

Austria also rivals Britain for promising drivers cut short before their prime. Helmut Marko, Helmuth Koinigg, Hans-Georg Burger, Jo Gartner...not forgetting Rindt...proportionately their total much higher.

[xpitf4]

Walter Rohrl. World rally champ,world sports car champ, but at 6'4" could not get into a F1 car to win their championship.Too bad.

[bauble]

Don't forget, Hans Stuck sr. (H J' s father) and Hermann Muller, Manfred von Brauchitsch, Rudolph Hasse, Walter Baumer, Von Delius, August Momberger and Prinz zu Leiningen from pre-war days who all drove Mercedes and Auto Union.

While this is an 'Historic' thread,not long ago we had four Germans in F1 2 Schui's Frentzen and Heidfeld. Watch out Poland.....

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by bauble

Don't forget, Hans Stuck sr. (H J' s father) and Hermann Muller, Manfred von Brauchitsch, Rudolph Hasse, Walter Baumer, Von Delius, August Momberger and Prinz zu Leiningen from pre-war days who all drove Mercedes and Auto Union.

Most of them were a bit mundane though. There's nothing that makes them stand out in that era any more than a Dreyfus or a Minoia, a sort of 30s equivalent of Ralfie or Frentzen, competent, very good on their day, but not genuinely world-beating. Brauchitsch was probably the best of that lot. I'm sticking with Rosemeyer, Caratsch and Lang.

[bauble]

Hans Hermann raced in GP's for 13 years from 1953 to 1966,Herman Lang also drove in the 50's, and other German drivers with at least one start are Christian Danner, Timo Glock, Gerhard Mitter and Rolf Stommelen.

Please, don't let's get on to Famous Belgiums

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by bauble

Please, don't let's get on to Famous Belgiums

BelgiANs!!!!

Don't worry, there are none!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

BelgiANs!!!!

Don't worry, there are none!

Ickx...

[Alan Raine]

And they also have one of the best race tracks in the world!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Austria also rivals Britain for promising drivers cut short before their prime. Helmut Marko, Helmuth Koinigg, Hans-Georg Burger, Jo Gartner...not forgetting Rindt...proportionately their total much higher.

Koinigg and Rindt met with horrific deaths... Koinigg's in Watkins Glen has got to be one of the most gruesome ever in F1.
How could Austria, such a relatively small country, have such a promising array of drivers and for so many of them to be killed. A dreadfully tragic statistic.

[Alan Raine]

I was at Watkins Glen in 74 when Koinigg had his accident, but was watching from the corner before, so thankfully didn't see it. I was also at Mosport Park the day before Manfred Winklehock crashed. I was coming home so missed the raced. Thankfully racing cars are much safer than they were!

[Alan Raine]

Sorry - I pressed the button twice!

Edit: Easily done Alan, no problem!