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Old 21 Jun 2021, 22:14 (Ref:4057694)   #351
Matt K
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
I wonder if the DTM needs to spend less of its budget on flying a helicopter around for some fairly unnecessary aerial footage and spend it instead on some on-screen AWS racer stats. Oh, wait, their biggest rival probably has a monopoly on that..

Having watched the races, I'm not ready to completely slate the series, but I hardly have a glowing review.

PROS

- The format. 50-60 mins of single driver head to head is nice

- The Competition. For the most part, the quality of the top 2/3 of the field is high, and the DTM could chisel itself out a niche for being PRO only, especially as the SRO Group move the opposite way towards giving AM's more of the cake.

- The Cars. Look, the on site advertising was pretty lacklustre, but the majority of cars have fairly substantial full car backing on board. This has always been a hallmark of the DTM. Its also hard to argue in my mind as a sportscar fan that GT3 is anything other than a brilliant class. Cons to follow on the cars...


CONS

- The cars. Let's just shut up about these being the fastest greatest GT3 cars in the world. They are GT3 cars, a very standised category, BOP moves things marginally forward from SRO maybe, but a quick google shows Kelvin van der Linde's 1'46.604 pole time for race two is more than a second slower than the 1'45.470 Henrique Chaves set in his Mclaren 720s GT3 in GT Open at Monza in 2020.

So, faster?? No.

This is a global spec used by many series, DTM's big headedness forces them to fluff up nonsense regualrly. But this should be seen as another completely standard GT3 series.

- The package. Firstly, this isnt any longer unique enough to warrant pay to view. Only the WEC and F1 can justify it, and theres stilla debate to be had for those as to whether it helps or hinders. For the DTM, the pay to view package is going to be a big drag on their figure. Why pay to see the same cars, go round the same track as you see in GTWC, GT Open, Italian GT for free. The overall production didnt warrant it either.

- The racing. others have said it more harshly, but there has always been some questionable occurrences in the DTM, maybe coincidental, but they happen enough to make you wonder.



Overall, while ill probably watch this series because I enjoy GT3's I wouldnt rank it anywhere as highly as GTWC or ADAC GT.

If we were to rank european GT3 series as it stands i'd put them as follows, which doesnt bode too well for the mighty (!) DTM.

Top Tier
GTWC / ADAC GT / British GT

Second Tier
GT Open / Italian GT / DTM



I think we now just have a few too many GT3 series in Europe. Ignoring the national series like British GT, ADAC, and Italian GT, there is 3 big GT3 series travelling Europe.

Looking at how average GT Opens grids are this year, itd almost make sense at this point to merge DTM and GT Open. A combo of the two would be worthwhile as an alternative to SRO formats, but we really dont need both neccessarily.

Agree with a lot of what you say here, however, your division of GT3 series into tiers is not really on for me. British GT being mostly a ProAm series can't be a top tier whereas DTM is a low tier. I'd definitely put DTM into your top tier while British GT into the low tier.
GTWC would definitely stay in the top one as this is 'World' championship although it's a typical endurance format (alongside sprint) which is not much of an interest for me - more of a teams competition than drivers and lots of names so that it's quite tough to follow it as one championship.
As for ADAC GT for now it's impossible to pick a winner in a ADAC vs DTM fight. This'll be felt in a few years' time maybe, next year the earliest I suppose.
DTM has a good grid and I'm definitely choosing this over ADAC GT but have to say the latter's grid is also strong (although with a bigger portion of amateurish/not really recognisable drivers), the whole package is good, we can see some efforts to widen its appeal like a new TV deal, these 'talk shows' on YouTube and so on and so forth.
DTM did well to preserve the championship but time will tell what it'll do to its identity and profile. I can't help but think that maybe the decision to switch to GT3 cars was a bit too quick but on the other hand the other option was to cancel the series. There are some ideas that look good on paper like going down the Supercars route or moving to GTE rules and I'd say both would be definitely better for DTM. But money is always a burden and few teams would be able to participate in GTE DTM (not many cars available as well) whereas adopting Supercars ruleset (or creating its own but somewhat similar) would take longer and who knows if anyone would be interested in that.
Berger capitalised on the fact that there are many teams already owning GT3 cars, many teams specialising in this type of racing and DTM is an alternative for some teams - possibly bigger marketability, still DTM's probably the most popular series in Germany (apart from F1) and has quite a following in Europe. So for some this was an opportunity to do something a bit different, sort of 'step up' maybe. But what makes me think is if there was a completely different ruleset for DTM - would there be a place for this championship? We live in a fast-changing world and motorsport's received a heavy blow in recent years and the scene is shrinking - no surprise there'll be championships disappearing in the years to come.
Last thought for now is that it's a huge shame there's a big rift between DTM and ADAC GT. They could join forces and create a quite a unique championship based on GT3 rules taking some things from one championship and others from the other. But this won't happen and there are a lot of obstacles that make it impossible.
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Old 22 Jun 2021, 10:00 (Ref:4057722)   #352
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Agree with a lot of what you say here, however, your division of GT3 series into tiers is not really on for me. British GT being mostly a ProAm series can't be a top tier whereas DTM is a low tier. I'd definitely put DTM into your top tier while British GT into the low tier.
GTWC would definitely stay in the top one as this is 'World' championship although it's a typical endurance format (alongside sprint) which is not much of an interest for me - more of a teams competition than drivers and lots of names so that it's quite tough to follow it as one championship.
As for ADAC GT for now it's impossible to pick a winner in a ADAC vs DTM fight. This'll be felt in a few years' time maybe, next year the earliest I suppose.
DTM has a good grid and I'm definitely choosing this over ADAC GT but have to say the latter's grid is also strong (although with a bigger portion of amateurish/not really recognisable drivers), the whole package is good, we can see some efforts to widen its appeal like a new TV deal, these 'talk shows' on YouTube and so on and so forth.
DTM did well to preserve the championship but time will tell what it'll do to its identity and profile. I can't help but think that maybe the decision to switch to GT3 cars was a bit too quick but on the other hand the other option was to cancel the series. There are some ideas that look good on paper like going down the Supercars route or moving to GTE rules and I'd say both would be definitely better for DTM. But money is always a burden and few teams would be able to participate in GTE DTM (not many cars available as well) whereas adopting Supercars ruleset (or creating its own but somewhat similar) would take longer and who knows if anyone would be interested in that.
Berger capitalised on the fact that there are many teams already owning GT3 cars, many teams specialising in this type of racing and DTM is an alternative for some teams - possibly bigger marketability, still DTM's probably the most popular series in Germany (apart from F1) and has quite a following in Europe. So for some this was an opportunity to do something a bit different, sort of 'step up' maybe. But what makes me think is if there was a completely different ruleset for DTM - would there be a place for this championship? We live in a fast-changing world and motorsport's received a heavy blow in recent years and the scene is shrinking - no surprise there'll be championships disappearing in the years to come.
Last thought for now is that it's a huge shame there's a big rift between DTM and ADAC GT. They could join forces and create a quite a unique championship based on GT3 rules taking some things from one championship and others from the other. But this won't happen and there are a lot of obstacles that make it impossible.
Sorry, I was ranking more in terms of enjoyment value.

I agree though there is a lot of potential for DTM, but it does require some improvement.

Id like to hypothesis what a ADAC GT and DTM merger would look like. Maybe its not about merging grids, maybe theres 60 min Pro Am 2 driver races, and 50 min all pro single driver races, then you merge the two GT4 series fully. I'd like to see that as a weekend package.

GT3 Pro races 2x 0h50 - single driver pro only
GT3 Pam races 2x 1h - 2 driver pro am format
GT4 Germany 2x 1h - 2 driver pro am format
TCR Germany 2x 1h
Plus the formula series ADAC currently has
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Old 22 Jun 2021, 22:13 (Ref:4057804)   #353
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I think DTM is still entertaining enough. We’ll see how the rest of the season goes

Would a DTM/ADAC GT merger work. Personally I think the DTM format is fine how it is and we don’t need to bring it in line with other GT3 series. But we need to watch out for other series like TCR that could be a threat
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Old 23 Jun 2021, 06:10 (Ref:4057824)   #354
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The GTWC Sprint Cup Zandvoort race had just 7 platinum drivers, and two of them were paired to bronze drivers. There was just one Platinum/Gold pair and two Gold/Gold pairs.


The DTM has a much stronger grid.
No way. You switch cause and effect: For the first time in a long period, a significant talent pool is accessible. Ofc. DTM had good drivers before, but most of them became GT/Sportscars involved well before already. Or kind of (were) stepped down to DTM.

----------

I guess one needs to look at the bigger sportscar picture: Me personally thinks this (DTM) is just a useful opportunity for idling the ramped up capactiy of big teams and the much bigger works driver rosters compared to some years ago. I suspect many actually aim at LMDh/LMH time come or at least some form GTD-Pro kind of development in ACO.
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Old 23 Jun 2021, 12:27 (Ref:4057882)   #355
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With GT3 and the new unborn LMDh class, the latter maybe also attract customer teams, is there still need by fans and German manufacturers for DTM? The racing world has changed a lot in the last 10, 12 years.

Maybe their plans for a full electric powered series can save the series, but it will depend on manufacturer involvement. For some reason they can't, like BTCC, without them.
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Old 29 Jun 2021, 05:47 (Ref:4058778)   #356
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With GT3 and the new unborn LMDh class, the latter maybe also attract customer teams, is there still need by fans and German manufacturers for DTM? The racing world has changed a lot in the last 10, 12 years.

Maybe their plans for a full electric powered series can save the series, but it will depend on manufacturer involvement. For some reason they can't, like BTCC, without them.
I think the DTM have commercial ambitions that are a lot, lot higher than the BTCC, hence the desire to attract OEMs.
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Old 29 Jun 2021, 15:25 (Ref:4058860)   #357
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Its not all good, but also not all bad.


Of course it was necessary, to switch to a different class and there was not much of choice.



My favourite would have been to adapt NGTC, but this was maybe nothing, that Berger could bring to german manufacturers (developing cars additionally or buy it from british teams were maybe nothing he could talk them into? Of course this was his advantage - Audi, BMW, Mercedes would contribute to the new platform, they left before as a compensation!). TCR was not appropriate (as there is TCR Germany already) and maybe not enough "premium".


I like the idea of one driver each car, so it might not end in "1 works driver, 1 slow driver to pay for". And of course i think the drivers are very strong already.


I would not judge after one race weekend, especially this racetrack might not bring real close racing. Maybe next race will be better. Crucial will be, to get the BoP close.


I believe, the name of DTM is most valuable thing, as it is better known all around the world. Sometimes i am confused from GTWC etc. as i am not so familiar with it. Maybe they changed it too often in past.
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Old 29 Jun 2021, 23:46 (Ref:4058948)   #358
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I believe, the name of DTM is most valuable thing, as it is better known all around the world.
Outside Europe, not so much.
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Old 30 Jun 2021, 06:54 (Ref:4058973)   #359
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I don't think anyone in the UK even remotely cares about DTM. I know motorsport fans who don't know what it is.
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Old 30 Jun 2021, 07:29 (Ref:4058975)   #360
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Honestly, central europe countries like france, germany or italy aside I don't think DTM ever had a big following... speaking about the "modern" DTM.
The DTM super tourism series of early '90 was a much more famous and consolidated motorsport series
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Old 30 Jun 2021, 09:58 (Ref:4058997)   #361
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Outside Europe, not so much.

Naturally yes, if you have Nascar, V8 Supercars etc. in your country/continent.

And of course, british motorsport fans will ever choose BTCC over DTM.


But in general, it was in some years strongest touring car series with drivers from around the world (not just one country).
But long time ago...


If you may ask random people, what they know in Motorsports, they will name F1, MotoGP, WRC and maybe some DTM (because heard it somewhere, not seeing it before).
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Old 30 Jun 2021, 20:54 (Ref:4059088)   #362
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Naturally yes, if you have Nascar, V8 Supercars etc. in your country/continent.

And of course, british motorsport fans will ever choose BTCC over DTM.


But in general, it was in some years strongest touring car series with drivers from around the world (not just one country).
But long time ago...


If you may ask random people, what they know in Motorsports, they will name F1, MotoGP, WRC and maybe some DTM (because heard it somewhere, not seeing it before).
These random people would also mention NASCAR, IndyCar before DTM. But I understand your point. DTM has always had an appeal of an 'important' series - big money, big involvement of two/three big German manufacturers, lots of big, international names. Few paydrivers if any really. This was kind of a driving force of DTM and now it's partly lost, however, I still believe in DTM's future.
However, apart from having an appeal of an 'important championship', there was always a feeling that DTM may not have such a 'cult' following as Supercars or BTCC - it's the latter's biggest strength now as the BTCC still is rooted as kind of a legendary, exciting, traditional touring car series - a bit sad that now it's a bit of a club(ish) racing with cult following, though.
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Old 1 Jul 2021, 10:20 (Ref:4059147)   #363
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If you may ask random people, what they know in Motorsports, they will name F1, MotoGP, WRC and maybe some DTM (because heard it somewhere, not seeing it before).
I don't think DTM belongs in that list at all lol. I think DTM wishes it was in that list, but it isn't even close.
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Old 1 Jul 2021, 14:42 (Ref:4059176)   #364
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I doubt DTM was ever a household name outside of the core markets (Germany+). And certainly isn't now.
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Old 1 Jul 2021, 15:01 (Ref:4059179)   #365
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I don't think anyone in the UK even remotely cares about DTM. I know motorsport fans who don't know what it is.
Maybe not now it's "just another GT3 championship". The previous incarnation of DTM was excellent - I went every year it was at Brands Hatch (also saw it at Donington). It was worth going to because the cars were spectacular - looked good, sounded good - it was a truly immersive experience. The racing wasn't BTCC door banging stuff but the spectacle of 20 of those cars hurtling around made it an event worth going to. The lap time difference between the DTM cars and GT3 cars was impressive - it wasn't even close.

The current incarnation of the DTM is really just a shadow of what it was.
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Old 1 Jul 2021, 15:14 (Ref:4059185)   #366
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I went to Norisring in 2019. My friend who lives in Munich had absolutely no idea of any of it.
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Old 1 Jul 2021, 15:19 (Ref:4059187)   #367
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I went to Norisring in 2019. My friend who lives in Munich had absolutely no idea of any of it.
It's probably because, as I said, DTM has never had such a 'cult status', even in Germany I think. By contrast, I met a few Australians in a club the other day and when mentioned Supercars and Bathurst 1000, they instantly knew what I'm talking about.
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Old 2 Jul 2021, 09:51 (Ref:4059315)   #368
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I don't think DTM belongs in that list at all lol. I think DTM wishes it was in that list, but it isn't even close.
I think part of the problem is he's not totally wrong either. DTM used to be in that list some 30 years ago. Wild, diverse touringcar racing on wild backcountry tracks, still some airfields and proper racetracks as well, paired with some glam and bliss.

For more then a decade it has been fragile&expensive silhouette cars & for long periods two manufacturerers racing themselves on not so much charming backcountry tracks but mostly failed track developments in the german backcountry, enriched by quite a number of questionable destinations across europe for a series that carries "Deutsche" in their name and rounded up by F1-eske gimmickery to make things even more stupid.
Basically, it became the opposite of what made it great. Yet for some reason it's been kept alive ever since.

The brand has been all they got for two decades now and they pumped money out of that alone for much too long. That finally ended because people eventually realized they were fooled.

Instead of pretending to be what they have long stopped being, I would reboot myself to the classic USP: Reckless sprint formats of consumer segment cars. Electric only, since TCR kind of covers that already. Get the OEMs in, don't emphasize on the eco-green aspect and avoid turning your series into an ethic lecture, have an orange Jägermeister ID3GTX ramble it out with an adidas-JSP EQA and see where that goes. Large stadiums aren't packed because some robotics professor explains the tactics, either, but because there's competition, booze and from time to time mayhem.

Rallying went from Group B to 1.6 l turbos but hasn't lost it's core brand (in fact created one, WRC) by keeping close to what the series meant. Endurance Classics very well do the same for a century now. Yet all of them respect their individual core, their niche, and are successfull by doing so.
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 01:28 (Ref:4063036)   #369
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Despite a race weekend taking place this weekend DTM have not updated their Twitter account since Monza free practice. That tells you everything.
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 07:55 (Ref:4063049)   #370
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Despite a race weekend taking place this weekend DTM have not updated their Twitter account since Monza free practice. That tells you everything.

it reveals how even they don't care about their own championship
they should give socials managment to miss Florsch, she's slow and overrated at wheel but her PR skills are f1 tier
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 09:50 (Ref:4063063)   #371
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Their instagram and facebook pages are being updated constantly...
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 13:48 (Ref:4063099)   #372
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it reveals how even they don't care about their own championship
they should give socials managment to miss Florsch, she's slow and overrated at wheel but her PR skills are f1 tier
I am watching Race 1 still, my goodness the 2 women drivers were literally the 2 who crashed out which caused the early safety car period. I want to see good sucessful women drivers. But Sophia and Esmee aint it. They along with Dev Gore are the 3 weakest drivers on the grid. It is so obvious. I would rather see American drivers like Robby Foley or Madison Snow in DTM. They would at least be solid mid packers.

Arjun Maini is a pleasant surprise though. I would like to see how can do in GT WC. A very strong addition to any pro level Mercedes effort I think he would be.
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 14:43 (Ref:4063106)   #373
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I do like that if there was safety car time, that they extended the race. They added 3 laps to the race after the 55 minute time interval ended.
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 16:04 (Ref:4063111)   #374
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I am watching Race 1 still, my goodness the 2 women drivers were literally the 2 who crashed out which caused the early safety car period. I want to see good sucessful women drivers. But Sophia and Esmee aint it. They along with Dev Gore are the 3 weakest drivers on the grid. It is so obvious. I would rather see American drivers like Robby Foley or Madison Snow in DTM. They would at least be solid mid packers.

Arjun Maini is a pleasant surprise though. I would like to see how can do in GT WC. A very strong addition to any pro level Mercedes effort I think he would be.

Just to clarify, I mentioned Florsch because is that kind of "modern" driver which gives the idea of being much more focused on her socials career and how many likes/followers can get than actually get better results on grid... I can't care less about her gender.
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Old 25 Jul 2021, 18:24 (Ref:4063120)   #375
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
Just to clarify, I mentioned Florsch because is that kind of "modern" driver which gives the idea of being much more focused on her socials career and how many likes/followers can get than actually get better results on grid... I can't care less about her gender.
Gender kind of does mattter. Do you know of any male race car drivers with a personal youtube channel that is bigger than Sophia Floresch, Hallie Deegan, and Danica Patrick...I can't think of any. Certainly not any male sportscar drivers.

And I must say Sophia has gotten less mentions on the broadcast at the EuroSpeedway round than at Monza. So I hope it remains that way unless Sophia or Emee work their way into the top 10 on merit.

Race 1 was a good watch. 4 makes in the top 4. Winward getting good results in all sorts of places. 24 Hours of Daytona of course. But also wins in DTM and GT World Challenge too.

I never seen DTM ever before this year, but I like GT racing so here I am watching. I even watched the frigggin' 10 car grid GT Open race at Imola too :-)
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