Bell's Banter 2021

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by andy97

Yes, Pintos can make big power these days but probably not on my budget!!! (…) And this is a rally car so a good spread of torque is more important than outright power for a rallying novice.(…)It was built relatively conservatively to suit my budget and hopes for a reliable, driveable engine. It can all be upgraded later, but whether I will or not is another matter.

Escort and Pinto is a good suitable and reliable set. The gearbox and rear axle can be made bullet proof too. Rallye or track, you have a very good car. And you can dream about the ultimate mod': http://www.connaughtengines.co.uk/warrior.asp I dont think you can have a HTP with one of those heads fitted.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Escort and Pinto is a good suitable and reliable set. The gearbox and rear axle can be made bullet proof too. Rallye or track, you have a very good car. And you can dream about the ultimate mod': http://www.connaughtengines.co.uk/warrior.asp I dont think you can have a HTP with one of those heads fitted.

Definitely not within my budget, Gerard!!
Funnily enough, in the U.K. you can use them in historic rallying. Someone convinced the powers that be that the Warrior head was a copy of the Holbay 16v head for the Pinto (was the Holbay a F2 design?) - there have been threads on here before about it but needless to say, the FIA didn’t agree so not allowed in European historics!

[Gerard C]

Hope you'll come in Europe with yours, Andy, one day or another… Fascinating to see that an acceptable Grp2 was in the region of 45/65 k three years ago, they are now well above the six figure mark. A financial investment any bank cant suggest!

[grantp]

Afternoon All!

A quick question that might be mostly intended for the Alfa fans.

Son-in-Law has a 60 - plate Guillietta diesel. Likes the car and recently decided it was fun enough to invest in a belt change with a view to running it for some years. Got it back within the last month.

Now, suddenly, it won't start on the starter. Managed to get it push started off a Tesco forecourt but once it has stopped there is nothing. Garage decided it was the starter and obtained a new one for north of £300 - I think he said £360 ish.

No difference. Still won't start.

Any suggestions I can pass on?

His mechanic, who he trusts having used him for several years, is now wondering if the new starter is faulty but I would guess something else. The "no start" was not something that had been experienced before it happened, as I recall.

Dodgy earth? From the brief conversation we have had about it I got the impression that they had checked all of the most obvious components and connections - but there is always the possibility that something has been missed.

Any suggestions will be gratefully received and passed on.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by andy97

Definitely not within my budget, Gerard!!
Funnily enough, in the U.K. you can use them in historic rallying. Someone convinced the powers that be that the Warrior head was a copy of the Holbay 16v head for the Pinto (was the Holbay a F2 design?) - there have been threads on here before about it but needless to say, the FIA didn’t agree so not allowed in European historics!

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...66_group_1.pdf
The 16V head was Homologated for the Escort in Gp 2.Picture on page 28 ,[ I think ].
But , as usual , Historic rules are interpreted in different ways by different organisations .

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by grantp

Afternoon All!

A quick question that might be mostly intended for the Alfa fans.

Son-in-Law has a 60 - plate Guillietta diesel. Likes the car and recently decided it was fun enough to invest in a belt change with a view to running it for some years. Got it back within the last month.

Now, suddenly, it won't start on the starter. Managed to get it push started off a Tesco forecourt but once it has stopped there is nothing. Garage decided it was the starter and obtained a new one for north of £300 - I think he said £360 ish.

No difference. Still won't start.

Any suggestions I can pass on?

His mechanic, who he trusts having used him for several years, is now wondering if the new starter is faulty but I would guess something else. The "no start" was not something that had been experienced before it happened, as I recall.

Dodgy earth? From the brief conversation we have had about it I got the impression that they had checked all of the most obvious components and connections - but there is always the possibility that something has been missed.

Any suggestions will be gratefully received and passed on.

Sounds like a main cable connection .
Check & clean battery connections , main cables onto starter motor & also engine to chassis earth connections .If there is a separate solenoid , check that as well.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by grantp

Afternoon All!

A quick question that might be mostly intended for the Alfa fans.

Son-in-Law has a 60 - plate Guillietta diesel. Likes the car and recently decided it was fun enough to invest in a belt change with a view to running it for some years. Got it back within the last month.

Now, suddenly, it won't start on the starter. Managed to get it push started off a Tesco forecourt but once it has stopped there is nothing. Garage decided it was the starter and obtained a new one for north of £300 - I think he said £360 ish.

No difference. Still won't start.

Any suggestions I can pass on?

His mechanic, who he trusts having used him for several years, is now wondering if the new starter is faulty but I would guess something else. The "no start" was not something that had been experienced before it happened, as I recall.

Dodgy earth? From the brief conversation we have had about it I got the impression that they had checked all of the most obvious components and connections - but there is always the possibility that something has been missed.

Any suggestions will be gratefully received and passed on.

I suppose there are a number of possibilities here (not pointing the finger here but if the belt tension wasn't quite right the belt may have jumped a tooth?)
A very simple check for a dodgy earth is to run a jump lead directly from the battery earth terminal straight onto a good thick part of the engine.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Sounds like a main cable connection .
Check & clean battery connections , main cables onto starter motor & also engine to chassis earth connections .If there is a separate solenoid , check that as well.

Thanks for that. I hinted at earths when we chatted yesterday. He won't be able to discuss that with the garage until tomorrow.

I'll pass on the suggestion. He should understand well enough, he's an electrician by trade!

He probably thinks the garage will already have checked wiring and they may well have done so but perhaps not spotted an obscure anomaly.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...66_group_1.pdf
The 16V head was Homologated for the Escort in Gp 2.Picture on page 28 ,[ I think ].
But , as usual , Historic rules are interpreted in different ways by different organisations .

Agreed, but the Warrior version is different! Can, worms.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by grantp

Thanks for that. I hinted at earths when we chatted yesterday. He won't be able to discuss that with the garage until tomorrow. I'll pass on the suggestion. He should understand well enough, he's an electrician by trade! He probably thinks the garage will already have checked wiring and they may well have done so but perhaps not spotted an obscure anomaly.

I was usually able to trace bad starting on competition engines to faulty earthing. An earth to chassis can often look OK but a good rasp round the hole in the chassis with a file can work wonders.

[Lancsbreaker]

Agree on the earth to the gearbox being a potential culprit - I've found this can be the cause if the non-starting is due to the engine not turning over, as opposed to turning but not starting - even if it looks tight corrosion can have built up underneath.


If its spinning over but not firing it could be a crank or cam sensor issue - can't remember whether the Giulietta diesels have a cam sensor.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

What a good weekend you had, really happy for you! What about braking late, did you think about the forum discussion? You just have to find why a fuse collapsed and check the head gasket. Did your friend swallow the four seconds he received or do you have to find another mate?
I see your french is good: to "et voilÃ*, ça marche" your can add "fichu fusible"!

I actually found that as the race progressed the pedal was getting longer, although the brakes still seemed to work OK - just made it a bit more difficult to judge the braking - although I know I was braking later into Old Hall than my mate, as I could check that from the pit wall....I also found I was braking later than a 911 (admittedly with a novice driver) who just caught me approaching Lodge, and as I wasn't seriously competing with him I eased off slightly earlier - at which point he chopped acroos in front of me.....and then braked, about 50 metres earlier than my normal braking point......which concentrated the mind


The 75 is actually my mate's, but I pay the entry fees so I think our relationship is secure - we've been mates since we were rallying together in the early 70s - and its an unwritten law that when sharing a car the non-owner is almost always quicker......he claims its because when he hands the car over to me everything is up to perfect working temperature, he's burnt off plenty of fuel etc.....but I just think its because I have slower reactions so I brake later.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by andy97

Had a good day out in the Escort last Wednesday at Curborough. Really enjoyable. First run in the car since I recently had the troublesome Vauxhall 1600 8v engine that it came with replaced by a 2 litre Pinto.
I have had the car about 5 years now and never really used it for a variety of reasons (troublesome engine, racing the Caterham, job changes, money etc) but I am now entered in a couple of circuit based rallies in the next 6 weeks at Snetterton and 3 Sisters.

Think I saw some pics on FB of your Curborough session? When are you at 3 Sisters - if spectators allowed by then I'll nip over - its pretty local


Who was your source at Oulton about our issues?

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by grantp

Now, suddenly, it won't start on the starter. Managed to get it push started off a Tesco forecourt but once it has stopped there is nothing. Garage decided it was the starter and obtained a new one for north of £300 - I think he said £360 ish. No difference. Still won't start.

I'd suspect the Neiman to be the culprit.

@Richard: if your travel pedal becomes longer and you have rear in-board discs, not many solutions to be found. Its either you adapt SZ vented discs and modify your calipers (expensive) or you try to keep the brakes temp within an acceptable temperature using "boas" i-e air ducts. Not really easy in this case because I remember there's few room between the floor pan and the dif'.
When flushing the brake fluid between two races its worth to flush the whole quantity not only what is in the calipers.
Its great to hear you had a lot of fun.

Who was your source at Oulton about our issues? Hey, you're famous!

[grantp]

Thanks to everyone for the Alfa feedback.

I'll send S-i-L a message as a starting point to discovering more about what they have checked so far.

From the way he described it to me it was "nothing happened at all" rather than a "turned over but no start" situation. It was a hasty conversation, I would normally have checked the full description but we were just leaving and they were about to go prepare for something else.

I'll update if or when I hear anything more.

[Gerard C]

The engine starts and the car runs. Only the starter moto seems dead. Look first between the ignition key and the said motor, and if the idiot lights dim or not. Battery connectors and the battery itself too. NOT the coil!!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by grantp

Thanks to everyone for the Alfa feedback.

I'll send S-i-L a message as a starting point to discovering more about what they have checked so far.

From the way he described it to me it was "nothing happened at all" rather than a "turned over but no start" situation. It was a hasty conversation, I would normally have checked the full description but we were just leaving and they were about to go prepare for something else.

I'll update if or when I hear anything more.

As Gerard said . If the ignition light goes out when trying to start , it is probably a poor connection on one of the main Battery /Earth / Solenoid cables . If the ignition stays on , check that the small wire to the Solenoid gets a voltage when the key is turned for starting .

[Paul D]

Just to reiterate Richard's earlier comments about our Oulton meeting yesterday: I got my first outright race win - first overall in Future Classics.

I've been telling anyone who will listen about the result, so may as well bore you lot on here with it too!

To say I'm well chuffed is a huge understatement! Couldn't believe it really - all things being equal, there's no way my car could ever win outright against some of the competition in this series. But, as SWMBO said (that's She Who Must Be Obeyed, for Gerard!), all of my planets must have been in alignment, and the combination of a good drive from myself (set my best ever lap time for Oulton during the race) and a well-judged pit-stop just as the SC came out left me second overall by the time everyone had done their stops. After that, it was just a case of keep my head down, keep my foot down and stay on track.

Although two V8 Tuscans & a very rapid E36 M3 finished in front of me on track, they were in the Modern Classics race (this was effectively two races on the same grid, but with independent results for each series), which left me as the first car from Future Classics to cross the line.

The 'Driver of the Day' award was just the icing on the cake, with £50 to spend in our sponsor's shop. I might turn pro if this keeps up!

However, the bitter pill hidden inside the cake, as Richard mentioned, is the fact that it seems I've now got a 30 seconds winner's penalty to serve at each race for the remainder of the season. Bummer!

Didn't think of that... That'll teach me to win the first race of the season!

However, it's my first outright win, and I'll happily take it, even if it does handicap me for the rest of the year.

[chunterer]

Congrats Paul what a great way to celebrate being released back into the wild!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As Gerard said . If the ignition light goes out when trying to start , it is probably a poor connection on one of the main Battery /Earth / Solenoid cables . If the ignition stays on , check that the small wire to the Solenoid gets a voltage when the key is turned for starting .

One of the best things for testing things like that instantly without spending loads of money is a "power probe". For 20 quid it will easily find the fault without having to dismantle anything. Funnily enough I happened to have it in my car at Brands last Friday and Delta's starter motor on his VW tow van would not work. The probe has a needle sharp end that will poke through the insulation. It will show if + or - is in a wire by a red or green light.
Although it was awkward to get at Iain got under it and probed the main live into the solenoid that showed red and the small wire to operate the solenoid showed green that turned red when I operated the starter switch. He hopefully will get a new starter tomorrow as this is definitely the problem. It "could" be the solenoid but after a 100,000 miles I wouldn't bother !
Unless you do a test and "understand" exactly what is happening (or not) then you can waste an awful lot of money. Normally if it's a bad main earth to the engine it starts burning out other smaller wires or operating cables that are fitted to the engine or gearbox, it used to be the throttle cable but very few vehicles have them now and use electronics.
I am still smiling about him having to get a "snatch" off of his wife in the early morning
PS we did try the "clout the starter" with a hammer

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As Gerard said . If the ignition light goes out when trying to start , it is probably a poor connection on one of the main Battery /Earth / Solenoid cables . If the ignition stays on , check that the small wire to the Solenoid gets a voltage when the key is turned for starting .

I'm not sure about the Giulietta, but my 159 with a similar engine (2.0 diesel) doesn't have an ignition light.......

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

doesn't have an ignition light.......

Sure? No pre-heating warning either? Did you "clout" the small bulbs in the dash? The red to the red? The blue to the blue…

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Just to reiterate Richard's earlier comments about our Oulton meeting yesterday: I got my first outright race win - first overall in Future Classics.

I've been telling anyone who will listen about the result, so may as well bore you lot on here with it too!

To say I'm well chuffed is a huge understatement! Couldn't believe it really - all things being equal, there's no way my car could ever win outright against some of the competition in this series. But, as SWMBO said (that's She Who Must Be Obeyed, for Gerard!), all of my planets must have been in alignment, and the combination of a good drive from myself (set my best ever lap time for Oulton during the race) and a well-judged pit-stop just as the SC came out left me second overall by the time everyone had done their stops. After that, it was just a case of keep my head down, keep my foot down and stay on track.

Although two V8 Tuscans & a very rapid E36 M3 finished in front of me on track, they were in the Modern Classics race (this was effectively two races on the same grid, but with independent results for each series), which left me as the first car from Future Classics to cross the line.

The 'Driver of the Day' award was just the icing on the cake, with £50 to spend in our sponsor's shop. I might turn pro if this keeps up!

However, the bitter pill hidden inside the cake, as Richard mentioned, is the fact that it seems I've now got a 30 seconds winner's penalty to serve at each race for the remainder of the season. Bummer!

Didn't think of that... That'll teach me to win the first race of the season!

However, it's my first outright win, and I'll happily take it, even if it does handicap me for the rest of the year.

Well done!

You know what they say, once you've got that elusive first win many more will follow.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Just to reiterate Richard's earlier comments about our Oulton meeting yesterday: I got my first outright race win - first overall in Future Classics.

I've been telling anyone who will listen about the result, so may as well bore you lot on here with it too!

To say I'm well chuffed is a huge understatement! Couldn't believe it really - all things being equal, there's no way my car could ever win outright against some of the competition in this series. But, as SWMBO said (that's She Who Must Be Obeyed, for Gerard!), all of my planets must have been in alignment, and the combination of a good drive from myself (set my best ever lap time for Oulton during the race) and a well-judged pit-stop just as the SC came out left me second overall by the time everyone had done their stops. After that, it was just a case of keep my head down, keep my foot down and stay on track.

Although two V8 Tuscans & a very rapid E36 M3 finished in front of me on track, they were in the Modern Classics race (this was effectively two races on the same grid, but with independent results for each series), which left me as the first car from Future Classics to cross the line.

The 'Driver of the Day' award was just the icing on the cake, with £50 to spend in our sponsor's shop. I might turn pro if this keeps up!

However, the bitter pill hidden inside the cake, as Richard mentioned, is the fact that it seems I've now got a 30 seconds winner's penalty to serve at each race for the remainder of the season. Bummer!

Didn't think of that... That'll teach me to win the first race of the season!

However, it's my first outright win, and I'll happily take it, even if it does handicap me for the rest of the year.

Great result. Well done Paul.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes indeed, great result.