[LM24] Top Speeds: Le Mans

[Adam43]

And Le Mans has a history of considering performance and economy. For years we had the index of performance.

[JAG]

'Certainly for me, a large reason for my interest in sportscar racing was the speed. Back in the late 80s, Group C cars were the fastest (in a straight line) beating even indycar oval machinery, and for me then, fastest was the best! Be it clips from Steve McQueen's Le Mans with the Gulf 917s/Ferrari 512s howling round the Mulsanne Kink, or Jaguar XJR-9 in Silk Cut colours flashing past the bar/restaurant before where the first chicane now is, these images formed my interest, and I now struggle to hide my dissapointment with current cars barely hitting 200mph. '

I come from the opposite perspective, having only seen the current LMP1/GT machines, the few times I have seen Group C/IMSA GTP machines, in historic racing, I'm struck by how poor they are on the breaks, the slower cornering speeds, and how they appear so unresponsive in general.

Albeit, this is only historic racing, but the front running cars were still pushed very hard.

[jhansen]

Yeah, straight line speeds don't do much for me either. I marvel at the lap times, cornering speeds, breaking distances, etc. The modern cars do these quite well. Brute power is not always an indicator either. The F1 engineers proved that this year by making the cars faster with less horsepower.

With that said, I do not want the LMP cars to lose their racing appeal. If the aero becomes too good and the breaking distances too short then overtaking will become less prominent. That would be a shame, as we have some great racing as it stands now.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by JAG

'i just done get the green exology award for the race, its motorsport A.C.O were the idea is to build the fastest car by any means necesarry motorsport is not who has the cleanest and most enviromentally friendly car the A.C.O with that in mind might as well be called greenpeace or as i call them greenboogers for stopping racing at monza since all they seem to be is a bunch of moaners with nothing better to do and have no idea what the hell they are on about!!'

No use building the fastest car for Le Mans, without great fuel consumption.

Any motor racing that does not have a relevance to real world motoring will be extint in the next 15 years.

'and the ecology award as well and slowing the cars down is really starting to tick me off quite a lot recently.'

Other than this year, when we saw the most powerful (since restrictor racing), quickest, most fuel efficient, and most technically advanced prototype ever!

Ehrm,this "most technically advanced prototype" needed 1500cc more enginecapacity and bigger airristrictors to be that powerfull. An unfair advantage if you ask me...and the quickest one still is the GT-ONE in the restrictor era.

I also do have a different view on the relevance to real world motoring since F1 has long been devoid of any real world technology and I'll bet ya it'll still be very popular in 15 years. People want to see a spectacle when they attend a great motorrace. Not silky quiet safetybarges blowing flowers from the exhausts when they whisper by.

[JAG]

The R8 was quicker than the GT-ONE, nevermind the R10.

Fastest race lap for the GT-ONE was 3.35, the R10 was down around 3.31.

BTW, I'd put big money on F1 being very different to the boring irrelevance it is today in 10 years time, nevermind 15.

[GTfour]

I was refering to the quickest lap time in qualifying(2:29,something). In topspeed it beat the R8 by a mile too.
Then,I too hope F1 is a lot different in the future for the competition is a boring parade to often. But an F1 car on it's own is still impressive to see and hear.
IMHO,silent racingcars without any drama noisewise are just not gonna attracked a lot of people..no matter how fast they are.

[GTfour]

About the noise restrictions. When I heard the rumours of this I decided to bring a measuringdevice to the race and do some readings.
The ACO will be banning cars producing more then 113 dB's measured from 15 meters BEHIND the spectatorsfence.
When I took my readings,I did so directly next to the fence and found that only the Porsche's and the Aston's read 114 dB(one peaking at 115!). Now,I also found that 113 dB is very loud but bareable. 114 dB however,hurts the eardrums in such a way that you know serious damage is being done.

So,for once,the ACO implements a new rule which is actually for our own good!

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by GTfour

About the noise restrictions. When I heard the rumours of this I decided to bring a measuringdevice to the race and do some readings.
The ACO will be banning cars producing more then 113 dB's measured from 15 meters BEHIND the spectatorsfence.
When I took my readings,I did so directly next to the fence and found that only the Porsche's and the Aston's read 114 dB(one peaking at 115!). Now,I also found that 113 dB is very loud but bareable. 114 dB however,hurts the eardrums in such a way that you know serious damage is being done.

So,for once,the ACO implements a new rule which is actually for our own good!

ill decide whether its for my own good lol the DBR9's and porkers were super loud they actually distorted youre hearing when they went past which i loved and the judd V8's were the same but i guess 113db is still pretty good what did the pescarolo's measure at and the cars with judd V8's?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GTfour

I was refering to the quickest lap time in qualifying(2:29,something). In topspeed it beat the R8 by a mile too.
.

Fastest GT-ONE time in 1999 was 3.29.xxx in qualifying.

Fastest R8 in 2002 was 3.29.xxx.

Top speed is unimportant as the Toyota GT-ONE simply benefited from less draggy bodywork and a touch more power. After the CLR incidents the P1 cars were fitted with Gurney flaps etc. which cut top speeds, but did not slow laptimes.

Incidently the R10 may have qualified in 3.30, but it's best sector times in RACE spec amounted to 3.29.xxx, 6 seconds faster than the GT-ONE's best race lap.

Theoretically, if the R10 had used qualifying tyres, they could have been down in the 3.26 region.

[dj choc ice]

but take into consideration that the toyota GT1 is a 8 year old design now and modern LMP's arent really much quicker seems a bit pointless now the sport isnt moving on at all anymore

[Adam43]

The ACO have decided to peg the cars at those sort of lap times though. They aren't going to get any quicker.

[Garrett]

dj choc ice... I totally disagree with you. Like Jag said, the R10 qualified a 3.30 at Le Mans this year on race rubber, not qualifying rubber. Don't get me wrong, the GT-ONE was top speed for its day 7 years ago, but the times have advanced. If the R10 would have run on qualifying tires, it could have easily pulled off a 3.27, if not a 3.26. Yet, not only have LMPs become quicker, look at GT2 and GT1 cars. Corvettes at Le Mans 2000 were running 3.57 laps. Now they run 3.53 laps. I don't know about you, but I see the LMPs are getting quicker and quicker every year, yet alone they are doing it with new technology like diesel engines!!!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

but take into consideration that the toyota GT1 is a 8 year old design now and modern LMP's arent really much quicker seems a bit pointless now the sport isnt moving on at all anymore

The cars are improving every year.

Each year or two the cars are pegged back in some way, but extra development drags them back to where they where.

This is one of the reasons the cars can run harder and faster each year.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

ill decide whether its for my own good lol the DBR9's and porkers were super loud they actually distorted youre hearing when they went past which i loved and the judd V8's were the same but i guess 113db is still pretty good what did the pescarolo's measure at and the cars with judd V8's?

,the V8 Judd's and Pesca's registered 113 as well. All the big capacity V8's showed 110 to 111 dB.

About the improvement in laptimes for both the LMP's and GT1's,we allready have the socalled laptime penalty for the GT1's(which in my eyes really is such a stupid rule ) so I'm afraid this nonsence could be applied to the LMP's too.

These sectortimes of the R10 shows us what times can be achieved by 700+ bhp...
The R10 therefore,is no comparison to the Toyota GT-ONE for that carried around 630. If a GT-ONE would have had 700+ it'd be in Group C laptimes...
But then there we go,"if","would have"....

[EspritS3]

The cars are improving every year

Absolutely - lets not forget the Nissan pole time in 1990 was a 3:27! (and with twice the power of today's cars) What would a car built to these rules do now? Realistically, they do have to be pegged back, but I'd much rather see restrictions in tyres/brakes/aero than drivetrain. Aero and tyres seems tobe where the big money research goes, without that much pay-off for road car development (200 mile life super grippy tyres, ground effect, and carbon-ceramic brakes on the next Ford Focus?) and ultimately damages "racing", as has been seen in F1. Yes, the cars are fantastic to watch in isolation, but you don't see much "racing" any more.

With comparatively little sponsorship money available these days, I'd much rather see research spent on improving BHP per litre, fuel consumption, electric hybrids, and yes even diesels. Lets hope the new coupe rules being proposed are a step in the right directions, and getting rid of F1 style noses, wheel pontoons, partly exposed suspension, and bubble cockpits can only be good for this - while a fantastic and purposely machine, the R10 is certainly not a pretty car in my book!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GTfour

,the V8 Judd's and Pesca's registered 113 as well. All the big capacity V8's showed 110 to 111 dB.

About the improvement in laptimes for both the LMP's and GT1's,we allready have the socalled laptime penalty for the GT1's(which in my eyes really is such a stupid rule ) so I'm afraid this nonsence could be applied to the LMP's too.

These sectortimes of the R10 shows us what times can be achieved by 700+ bhp...
The R10 therefore,is no comparison to the Toyota GT-ONE for that carried around 630. If a GT-ONE would have had 700+ it'd be in Group C laptimes...
But then there we go,"if","would have"....

What Group C laptimes, the R10 is quicker than any Group C car other than the 905 Evo.

No Group C car, or LMP for that matter, has come close to the consistent speed the R10 showed this year, and lets not forget, the current Le Mans track configeration is a second or two slower than the Group C days.

The GT-ONE had around 670-680bhp, BUT far more generous chassis/aero regs for drag/downforce, still it's fastest race lap was at least 3 seconds slower than the 3.32's the R10 was regularly putting in, and 6 seconds slower than the R10's quickest lap.

Even the R8's fastest race lap in 2002 was 2-3 seconds quicker than the GT-ONE.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by EspritS3

The cars are improving every year

Absolutely - lets not forget the Nissan pole time in 1990 was a 3:27! (and with twice the power of today's cars) What would a car built to these rules do now? Realistically, they do have to be pegged back, but I'd much rather see restrictions in tyres/brakes/aero than drivetrain. Aero and tyres seems tobe where the big money research goes, without that much pay-off for road car development (200 mile life super grippy tyres, ground effect, and carbon-ceramic brakes on the next Ford Focus?) and ultimately damages "racing", as has been seen in F1. Yes, the cars are fantastic to watch in isolation, but you don't see much "racing" any more.

With comparatively little sponsorship money available these days, I'd much rather see research spent on improving BHP per litre, fuel consumption, electric hybrids, and yes even diesels. Lets hope the new coupe rules being proposed are a step in the right directions, and getting rid of F1 style noses, wheel pontoons, partly exposed suspension, and bubble cockpits can only be good for this - while a fantastic and purposely machine, the R10 is certainly not a pretty car in my book!

Agree, which is why I'm all for the 'simpler' coupe regs in 2010. Cool looking cars that rely less on aero downforce while keeping the current drivetrain, chassis and technology.

[JAG]

'the V8 Judd's and Pesca's registered 113 as well. All the big capacity V8's showed 110 to 111 dB.'

What were the turbo cars like, the R10's and the AER cars?

Less than 110dB?

[dj choc ice]

so to set the record staright with noise restrictors any car that is over 113db will have to have a noise restrictor and any car under that will not have to have a noise restrictor?

[JAG]

If your 113B or under your fine, i.e. 90% of the field.

For the Astons and Porsches it could be as simple as pointing the direction of the exhausts to the ground.

[dj choc ice]

thats cool so basically 90% of cars wont have a noise restrictor on then thats ok then the lemans spirit will still stay with the unbelieveable noise and next year hopefully the RS spyder porsche's will be at lemans and i cant wait to see that car racing for me

RS spyder=good stuff

couple that with the RML and chamberlain LMP2 lola B05/40's and you will have a huge battle on your hands

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by JAG

'the V8 Judd's and Pesca's registered 113 as well. All the big capacity V8's showed 110 to 111 dB.'

What were the turbo cars like, the R10's and the AER cars?

Less than 110dB?

The 4 pot turbo's were still quite loud with about 108,109 dB.
The R10 registered a pittyfull 91 dB...