[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[Adam43]

Thanks for the link. Top stuff.

[Mike Harte]

Having watched the incident for the first time, my initial thoughts are confirmed. Verstappen was stupid to have not allowed Ocon to unlap himself.


The speed differential between the two was significant, and Verstappen caused the clash. I cannot see that Ocon did anything wrong, and certainly did nothing to merit a stop and go penalty. He stayed out of Verstappen's way at all times, and it was Verstappen that refused to give Ocon space in which to place his car.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The speed differential between the two was significant, and Verstappen caused the clash. I cannot see that Ocon did anything wrong, and certainly did nothing to merit a stop and go penalty. He stayed out of Verstappen's way at all times, and it was Verstappen that refused to give Ocon space in which to place his car.

One of the key parts, IMO, is the Red Bull Team Radio during that video:

'I have this Force India behind me pushing'
'Understood, yeah he's out on fresh supers'

Surely that is the point where the driver should realise he has nothing to gain in resisting a pass?

How many times do we hear drivers (Alonso particularly) demonstrate their awareness of other cars' positions relative to the overall race situation. It appears Max still has to develop this part of his racecraft.

[bella]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

How many times do we hear drivers (Alonso particularly) demonstrate their awareness of other cars' positions relative to the overall race situation. It appears Max still has to develop this part of his racecraft.

i wonder if red bull need to spell things out to him a bit more, whether he likes it or not. because like you say, it appears max isn't great at seeing the big picture, and it's the team's job to help him understand that and make sensible decisions where they're his to make.

people who get the most stick for their mistakes are usually the ones we expect more from. we ALL know how brilliant max can be.

[S griffin]

Well he’s on his way to winning the championship. I’m sure he’ll polish out the dents in time

[Taxi645]

You guys respond as if we hadn't had 31 pages of discussion about this before the video. A similar video was already posted earlier. Yes DRS gives him a pace advantages (between 0.4 and 0.7s on this track I reckon). Together with being willing to overdrive the tires (say another 0.3s for a few laps) to prove a point it may seem you're a lot faster while you're maintainable pace is not. Anyone thinks that's Ocon after the pass would've just cleared of needs a reality check.


Now what I did find interesting about the video was that the team did instruct Ocon to let Hamilton pass (which Ocon rightly ignored) however they did not communicate any word of caution for passing the much faster leading car of Verstappen in a safe manner.


Quite telling.




Video is taken off-line btw.

[S griffin]

I think it was over ambitious to try there. Yes Max didn't have to fight so much, but Ocon shouldn't have tried there

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it was over ambitious to try there. Yes Max didn't have to fight so much, but Ocon shouldn't have tried there

If you go back over the years, you will find that the esses have always been used as an overtaking spot, partly because it gives you bites of the cherry. That is assuming that the car in front doesn't just pretend that you are not there and just cuts you off, as with Verstappen.

[Aysedasi]

This has to be one of the longest conversations about one incident in a GP that I've ever seen..... We need another race!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

This has to be one of the longest conversations about one incident in a GP that I've ever seen..... We need another race!

We certainly do.......

[Adam43]

That video was the best way to view it. Shame it’s gone away.

Quite telling.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Adam43

That video was the best way to view it. Shame it’s gone away.

Quite telling.

IMHO, it just proved that Ocon did absolutely nothing wrong, nor did he behave in a way or do anything that warranted a penalty.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If you go back over the years, you will find that the esses have always been used as an overtaking spot, partly because it gives you bites of the cherry. That is assuming that the car in front doesn't just pretend that you are not there and just cuts you off, as with Verstappen.

yeah, exactly. it's not like this happened at the hotel hairpin at monaco or anything.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

IMHO, it just proved that Ocon did absolutely nothing wrong, nor did he behave in a way or do anything that warranted a penalty.

Well, if backmarkers and their teams feel the same that is a good idea to mess with the lead of the race without having a sustainable pace advantage then perhaps it is time to remove DRS for backmarkers on frontrunners alltogether. That way we can be sure they can only approach a frontrunner if there is actually a significant sustainable pace advantage.

As said before, hopefully common sense prevails and such over the top knee-jerk reactions are not neccessary.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

As said before, hopefully common sense prevails and such over the top knee-jerk reactions are not neccessary.

Indeed, had Verstappen taken your advice he would have won.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Indeed, had Verstappen taken your advice he would have won.

Peter, I mostly disagree with your posts, but in this case I'm afraid I have to disagree.

1 As argued before, the extent of Hamilton's engine problems was not yet apparent at the point of the incident. So this is hindsight.

2 Neither Ocon or Verstappen had a pace advantage large enough over the other to overcome the mention 0.4-0.7s advantage DRS provides at Sao Paulo. That means that they would've been in each others hair for many laps (I guess 5-10 laps) exchanging position before Ocon supersofts would've kneeled and Verstappen would've driven off (with damaged softs as well which would've made finishing the race on them more difficult). We also know Ocon (rightfully in this case) ignored the blue lights for Hamilton. So there is no reason to assume he would just let pass Verstappen, when he had just risked so much to pass just before.

In such case the average lap time you loose is at least a second and mostly more. That was much more than the pace advantage Verstappen had over Hamilton at that point. It would've have brought Hamilton right back into the game.

As said before Verstappen should not have assumed Ocon wasn't there, but having "satellite" backmarkers without genuine pace advantage mess up the race lead by trying to fight passed the leader is worrying. I have yet to see anyone even attempting to make an argument why Ocon's pace would've been significantly higher apart from a video of a Mercedes engine with DRS storming along side a tire nursing Renault engine in a higher downforce chassis (which as argued by someone else doesn't tell us anything a bout the pace over a whole lap).

Luckily it is not frequent enough too warrant much further action rather than make the do and don't perhaps a bit more clear in the briefing/rule book.

[Peter Mallett]

To finish first, first you have to finish. If Verstappen had left room, and you can't deny there was room, he would have won the race. Whether Ocon was right or not, to turn in on him when there was no need was foolish, if not petulance personified.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

To finish first, first you have to finish. If Verstappen had left room, and you can't deny there was room, he would have won the race. Whether Ocon was right or not, to turn in on him when there was no need was foolish, if not petulance personified.

I can't and haven't denied there was room. However there is no further use in discussing if someone states something, someone else makes an argument against it and the response is merely an iteration of the original statement.

I repeat: "I have yet to see anyone even attempting to make an argument why Ocon's pace would've been significantly higher apart from a video of a Mercedes engine with DRS storming along side a tire nursing Renault engine in a higher downforce chassis (which as argued by someone else, doesn't tell us anything about the pace over a whole lap)."

The above would've been a requirement for guaranteeing Verstappen the racing win by letting Ocon pass.

[Akrapovic]

Whether Ocons pace would've, could've or should've been better doesn't actually matter. He could've made the pass and immediately been 2 seconds a lap slower. It doesn't actually matter. Ocon was in the wrong and he decided he was going to make that daft attempt at a pass, regardless of his speed. Fighting him was going to gain nothing.

[Peter Mallett]

Proof? The proof is that he caught Verstappen at the first corner.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If you go back over the years, you will find that the esses have always been used as an overtaking spot, partly because it gives you bites of the cherry. That is assuming that the car in front doesn't just pretend that you are not there and just cuts you off, as with Verstappen.

Yeah an overtaking spot between cars that are on the same lap, not a car trying to unlap itself

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yeah an overtaking spot between cars that are on the same lap, not a car trying to unlap itself

As far as I am aware, there is no rule (nor do I believe that there has ever been one) that states that drivers are only permitted to unlap themselves at certain places on a circuit.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It doesn't actually matter. Ocon was in the wrong and he decided he was going to make that daft attempt at a pass, regardless of his speed.

I don't necessarily agree that Ocon was in the wrong here but that is what the stewards decided.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Fighting him was going to gain nothing.

But this I agree with wholeheartedly.

Edit: We have five days to go to the AD GP so let's keep the forum post count going.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Edit: We have five days to go to the AD GP so let's keep the forum post count going.

How many laps do you reckon the round in circles ‘discussion’ can add to the total by then?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

How many laps do you reckon the round in circles ‘discussion’ can add to the total by then?

Depends on whether the conversation leaders allow those is further back to unlap ourselves