Electronic Ignition.. Yes or No!

[terence]

It is quite obvious that the Manufacturers cannot give the quality that racing demands.I spent quite sometime going through the web pages searching for an independent Manufacturer yesterday,everything pointed to India/China for current supplies! The idea is to get an indication as to the general thoughts on this subject.We all know that the power gains probably average about 3 BHP,I am not really concerned on the power advantage but I would like to know that I have reliability.You're thoughts Gentlemen ? We are NOT talking Engine Management,just doing away with the crap components that are available,just Luminition type systems.

[John Turner]

Electronic ignition has been available for years. I remember when I was sprinting and hill climbing in the mid 70's with the RSSOC, a number of my fellow competitors were using Piranha (correct spelling?) electronic ignition, and there were other makes available too. At the end of the day, you guys want reliable competition cars; for most of you, it's a hobby, and presumably the least amount of hassle, the better, beween meetings. The fact that it might give up to 3bhp more is irrelevant really since you obtain much greater gains from better knowledge of porting, camshaft profiling and exhaust tuning, these days. As you say, Terence, it is not engine management, and hardly an unfair advantage is it? It is easily available and relatively cheap; if it takes a bit of pain out of preparation and improves reliability of starting and smoother running, it seems to me that it should be acceptable. You could even argue that it is greener, since it usually improves fuel consumption marginally.

[terence]

The fact that it can be slightly greener John is obviously a plus point.My breakdown at Spa last year could easily have turned nasty if the guy I had just overtaken had not realised that there was a problem with the car! It was just a thought,how long before a total ignition failure causes an accident? I was lucky to have gone past whom I had.It could also be argued on safety grounds.

[John Turner]

Just to clarify, Terence, you were using points (Sourced from Asia) when this failure occurred? Electronic ignition can fail too, of course, as I found out in a very fast and busy outside lane on th M25 in my Scimitar GTE, some years ago. How I managed to freewheel through the gaps to get to the hard shoulder was clearly down to my exceptional skill ..... oh, alright, luck then!

However, that was 20 years ago and on the whole, electronic ignition is more reliable. Can you still get the type that retains the points (and reduces the wear on them) and which is switchable back in the event of an electronics failure?

[Al Weyman]

I have had electronic ignition fail on me too, I remember I went all the way down to Brands with a perfect running car, get there and she just would not fire up for no apparent reason. Fortunately I carried and still do the standard points set up as a back up.

I am currently using a points activated MSD set up on my yellow car would that not be legal as it uses the points only as a trigger so apparently they dont wear out so much.

[GORDON STREETER]

Its not as if contactless ignition is expensive. I scrap cars most weeks with perfectly good distributor type systems that can easily be adapted to historic cars if you know what you are doing. For quite a while us guys in the motor trade know that the "pattern" points/condensers are mostly rubbish. I fitted a new set in a Mini that broke down on road test, so I cleaned the old points up and refitted them with the old condenser. Its still running after a year !!
Don't forget you can fit a condenser from just about any 12v system (not just the one listed) even an old radio suppression condenser will work. If you cant get it in the dizzy fit it on the CB side of the coil , its easier to fit and wont break down through fixing fractures that I have seen on a few historic racers.

[terence]

Those systems are still available John,but to be abel to go contactless would be the chosen route.
I quite agree Gordon,those units can be modified to work on "our" engines.
The failure I experienced was were the low tension wire joins the square sprung arm of the points and then onto the Condensor,the wire had obviously been crimped too much because it broke right on that joint.The set was allegdedly Lucas "New Old Stock",but then again the "B" type engine has always suffered from high degrees of vibration,hence my earlier breakdown were the condensor let go of the retaining bracket! I am looking at externally mounting the condensor[away from the engine] but that still leaves the problem of the points,I always used to use Cooper "S" points but hens teeth come to mind.

[GORDON STREETER]

I would have thought that "period" type electronic should be allowed. All my competition cars going back to 1969 have had contactless dizzies, at that time there were a few springing up like Moblec at Caterham ( now Micro Dynamics ) And as Al pointed out some used the original points that didn't use 12v to do the actual switching of the low tension and consequently lasted a lot longer. Also some of them had a switch to revert back in case it went on the "blink"
Seeing that it cost a load of money to do a meeting (especially abroad) a very simple system should, IMHO be allowed . Some of the purist may not agree, but they might when they are sitting on the side of the track at the Ring/Spa or wherever on the first lap of a long race through something as trivial as a condenser packing up.

[Tim Falce]

I always thought that you didn't get any extra power from electronic ignition, just more reliable and easier to maintain and set up. I don't see the problem with a Lumenition type system on classic cars as long as they are not mappable type systems with Lambda sensors etc.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I would have thought that "period" type electronic should be allowed. All my competition cars going back to 1969 have had contactless dizzies, at that time there were a few springing up like Moblec at Caterham ( now Micro Dynamics ) And as Al pointed out some used the original points that didn't use 12v to do the actual switching of the low tension and consequently lasted a lot longer. Also some of them had a switch to revert back in case it went on the "blink"
Seeing that it cost a load of money to do a meeting (especially abroad) a very simple system should, IMHO be allowed . Some of the purist may not agree, but they might when they are sitting on the side of the track at the Ring/Spa or wherever on the first lap of a long race through something as trivial as a condenser packing up.

AMEN to that!! I was fortunate in that the Marshall radioed through to get me a lift back to the pits,otherwise it would have been a long walk or wait.What I should of done at the start of this thread was to have created a Poll,only problem was,I did'nt know how too.

[terence]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I always thought that you didn't get any extra power from electronic ignition, just more reliable and easier to maintain and set up. I don't see the problem with a Lumenition type system on classic cars as long as they are not mappable type systems with Lambda sensors etc.

Power-wise it's negligible but the reliability is what I think we ALL need.

[zefarelly]

reliability is very desirable, excessive use of modern and non period technology is a major problem, lets get the latter sorted first, then reconsider

I'd love to say yes lets allow contactless systems but no electronics etc etc but I fear if it happens it'll just be a slippery slope.

having said that most people use electronic/lumenition type systems anyway!

[terence]

Exactly Zef,it's surprising just how they slip through scrutineering!.One way to stop any further cheating would be to approach a manufacturer for a "One size Fits All" type unit.

[pheyden]

A newbie here with just a few comments.

As a preparer of engines for historic series, both FIA and Non-FIA, i can tell you that the performance advantage of non points type ignition over points type is "at best" negligible. At least on my engine dyno I cannot see the difference.

As far as reliability goes, guess what most racers carry in their tool box as an emergency spare? You guessed it, a points type distributor and coil that can be set up with the most rudimentary tools.

One of the challenges is finding someone who has an Allen Synchrograph or a Sun distributor machine, and the knowledge of how to put it to use, to set up the advance curves in a distributor, regardless of whether it is points or solid state sensor.

It is a misnomer to call the "electronic ignitions" as well. The only thing electronic about them is the method of sensing (opto, Hall effect etc). Beyond that they basically fire a coil.

Now more modern ignitions, that use crankshaft sensors and an ECU with multiple coils, do very definitely have a performance advantage in that they are you can vary the amount of advance based on a combination of RPM and throttle opening/engine load. I have found that while the total advance at high RPM might be the same as with a distributor type ignition, the real difference is at partial throttle, corner exit, where for a very short period of time much more advance can be used to aid in putting the power down.

Paul

[zefarelly]

great post pheyden, so my opinion remains, lets start hassling the or a manufacturer to make and supply good quality poiunts and condensers !

maintain the reliability and performance we want, and hold the moral high ground!

[Al Weyman]

Can you not adabt a set of Mallory competition points Zef they seem very reliable I have never had a failure.

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

great post pheyden, so my opinion remains, lets start hassling the or a manufacturer to make and supply good quality poiunts and condensers !

maintain the reliability and performance we want, and hold the moral high ground!

And there lies the rub,got to find one first,in my opening post I did say that I'd been searching for one but all the manufacturers are Indian or Chinese,back to where we started!!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

great post pheyden, so my opinion remains, lets start hassling the or a manufacturer to make and supply good quality poiunts and condensers !

maintain the reliability and performance we want, and hold the moral high ground!

Why would manufacturers (Lucas, Bosch etc) want to go to the expense of producing a few parts for ignition systems which are now from a dinosaur era compared with modern electronics.
Surely you would be better hassling the FIA to allow electronic equipment which will not give any real advantage except more reliability.

[terence]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Why would manufacturers (Lucas, Bosch etc) want to go to the expense of producing a few parts for ignition systems which are now from a dinosaur era compared with modern electronics.
Surely you would be better hassling the FIA to allow electronic equipment which will not give any real advantage except more reliability.

Yes absolutly Falcie,no-one I've spoken too is slightly interested in the re-prodution of these parts.I have just been offered some sets of Cooper S points[Proper ones]they are the older type without the crap bit in the middle were the condensor terminal is just a ring type bolt down,so that it will be a lot easier externaly mounting the condensors. No doubt that should bring a big sigh of relief from Jeremy but I wonder what the scrutineers will make of it,I'll be lifting the dizzy cap at every event!!

[zefarelly]

ah-hem

sorry, just clearing my throat . . .

major manufacturers are obviously a waste of time, always have been, always will be, in fact I doubt many people used all OE bits in period, SO . . . logic says there must be a manufacturer who can make the bits required, and if they where approached with a viable/universal design (eg, a points set and condenser like lucus which would service ford/rootes/triumph/BMC???) and given sensible quantities (5000 sets say) would do the business . . . . .

[Al Weyman]

Surely one of these performance offerings from mallory or Accell could be adabted to fit. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...34&D=%2D155234

[zefarelly]

thanks Al, maybe I/we could test some, I'll ask my US engine building friend and see if he can do anything.

As I've said before, I have run 8000RPM and not had any problems with points. . . . . . in 5 years only one failure of condenser, on the grid of a restart!

several people have said to me before that points are a great rev limiter, if/as they are, and its a well enforced reg, you might argue it could keep the cost of historic racing down . . . . why spend £30k on an ultra hot 'extreme' race engine just to gain the extra few HP you can't use? build a period correct, tuned one for £5-10k instead, the extra 20 odd thousand probaly gains less than 10% of any practical benefit anyway.

like 'adding lightness', why spend £5k per car on weight saving only to jump in tha car having invested in fillet steaks and fine wines th night before, or beef dumplings and ale . . . or may chips and evian for that matter . . .mm I fancy a snack

[GORDON STREETER]

Funny you should say that Zef. I know a bloke that raced motorcycles for several years and he would spend a fortune on lightweight parts that really at the end of the day made blow all difference. He was and still is about 3 stone overweight ! Just going to the fridge .

[GORDON STREETER]

Hey Al don't most of the old tanks have twin points?,

[terence]

I have approached a small independant company in Birmingham asking exactly that Zef,they are not interested as are other people too.