Yellow Flags

[Stephen Green]

Let me throw a spanner into the works. The Marshals Club put a paper to the MSA not too long ago about the future of marshalling. One of the major points was the reducing number of marshals available to clubs, and one solution, and I think quite viable, was that flags be replaced by lights. This would in effect free the flag marshals to do other jobs.

Before you shoot me down and start to complain, think about it logically, it IS a very good solution to our current problem of marshal shortage.

The downside is that we would expect the circuit owners to foot the bill for the implementation of the lights, not a cheap job I suspect.

Going back to an earlier comment ref the flag points being out of the drivers line of sight, no-one has mentioned that they (flag points) have to be visible from one marshals post to another, often the reason they seem to be in strange places.

I think that with the ever pressing need for greater run off areas (Silverstone is a great example) by necessity flag points will be further from the drivers sight.

[GordonG]

Chigley

You are absolutely right - its amazing what can be conveyed by the wrist of a good flaggie in the blink of an eye - you often just *know* how bad the incident is from the way the flag is presented.

Then again, ligths would still be better than no flag!

G

[Chris Y]

Ok, well if we're doing lights, how about a variable-rate flashing system then? I.e. lazily flashing for things like lining up on the grid, or flashing like a disco for a serious incident.. Perhaps alternating 2 flashing lights like on railway level crossings..

Also, have a strobe, or some sort of light on the marshal's post, so that it would be very difficult to accidentally forget to switch the lights off. That could also serve as an indication that the gantry lights are working, or not, and flags could be deployed as a backup.

[alf]

Originally Posted by GordonG

Chigley

You are absolutely right - its amazing what can be conveyed by the wrist of a good flaggie in the blink of an eye - you often just *know* how bad the incident is from the way the flag is presented.

Then again, ligths would still be better than no flag!

G

yes all well and good so long as you actualy spot the flag/er. lights above you will rarly be missed. especialy in british weather.

as for the vigour or otherwise of flags being waved.
the incident ahead is either serious or minor.
if its serious enough for a marshal (god bless em) to be waving like mad. throw a red light, if its minor yellow will do, in betweenies flashing yellow. and let us not forget that there are a host of other colours out there too!!


circuits earn enough to pay for the lights.
just make it a regukation and they will have to just find the money, the same a s we just have to throw away a perfectly good fire extinguisher, and replace it with a plumbed in model that only covers 2 areas

etc etc etc

[GordonG]

"as for the vigour or otherwise of flags being waved.
the incident ahead is either serious or minor.
if its serious enough for a marshal (god bless em) to be waving like mad. throw a red light, if its minor yellow will do, in betweenies flashing yellow. and let us not forget that there are a host of other colours out there too!!
"

AIUI the red flag can only be deployed when called for from the COC (or some central authority) - not a decision to be made by an individual flag post.

Also, what about the case (which is one I had in mind when I wrote the previuous post) where a car has spun around a blind bend. So long as nobody TBones him, he'll get going and the race can continue uninterrupted. So a red is inappropriate. But a vigorously waved yellow may be enough to convey that the problem is *REAL CLOSE* and that the driver needs to slow down NOW as opposed to gently coasting down from race pace (where in other circumstances a gentle coast may be safer in reducing the risk of being rear ended).


G

[midgetman]

f/x MM rummaging thro' Blue Book - ah yes here it is - L?.??.??? Stationary yellow - slow down, no overtaking, Waved yellow - Slow down, be prepared to stop, no overtaking, Waved yellow with marshal doing something unintelligible - focus, try and work out what it means, oh **** hit car in road 'cos too busy trying to understand what the marshal means!!!!!

Do like the idea of disco lights alongside the track, maybe I'll buy a white racing overall with a fake medallion. Nomex of course to make sure of Staying Alive Enough to give me the Heeby BeeGees

Sorry, I'll go back to work....

[dtype38]

Using flags at intervals round the track can have some unusual side effects....

I was once at a meeting at Pembrey and had some time before my race so decided to do a bit of spectating. It was raining so I took my big brolly along. I walked around the inside of the track and noticed some big oil drums near to the armco which would give a good view. I stood on top of one and opened up my big yellow brolly. For most of the next race I stood there looking up then down the track as the cars went by, but no one seemed to be making any overtaking attempts at the bit of track I'd chosen. I then noticed an official come down from the tower and walk in my direction. As he got nearer, I realised he was looking directly for me, but I couldn't think why.... Then he asked me if I'd kindly stop doing an impression of a flag marshall waving a yellow flag so that the drivers could get on with a bit more racing!

[R59]

I was once asked to remove my team coat (a flourescent yellow coat) while standing on the pit wall at Brands. I was mid way between the marshall's post at the start of the pitwall (near Assembly area exit) and the start line. Driver's who have brains (excludes most of us according to Prof Sid Watkins) know where the marshall's points are. There's one at Silverstone, and one at Castle Combe, and I'm sure I saw one at Cadwell once.

I'm glad that I wasn't wearing a red coat, because I may have caused the race to stop, or even a black coat, as drivers may have all come into the pits and reported to the c of c. Wearing a blue coat would have made no difference however.

But, to the point of the thread, I also find that there are people who honestly take the red mist to the n'th degree, and pay s0d all attention to the warning flags. With the decline in the number of marshalls, and more importantly, observers, we need some means of improving the situation.

Lights would be useful, if on gantry's, and at points where they are prominent, for example, at the end of straights. The idea of different patterns is also a good idea. Full on = stationary yellow - alternating = waved - flashing like billy-o = big trouble, but not red-flag material - I suppose it could be like the failed black/yellow quartered "pace car" flag.
Red lights should flash/alternate anyway - to differentiate them from brake lights on the horizon....

Failing that, for single seater or open-top racers who fail to take notice - a water cannon at specific points around the circuit....

Tee hee hee.

Rob.

[alf]

I understand what you are saying ref the flags etc but that is with the rules as they stand. if new technology is bought in, the regs can be tweeked to accomadate. again I stress the difficulties of spotting the flags when at full chat if so far away from the track itself.

[R59]

So, following on from my previous diatribe, with lights in place, the existing flag waver's could all be upgraded to vigalent observers! However, if you upgrade to the BTCC, you're glasses will be replaced with one that are rose tinted in relation to "non-contact sport".

[Stephen Green]

Actually it would be very difficult to flag and be an observer. While the flag marshal is watching the track and waving his yellow flag furiously in an attempt to get blind drivers to slow down, the observer is in the marshals hut, back to the traffic, writing his report to the C of the C to get your times disallowed

In the case of BTCC he's too busy looking at the crumpet in the crowd or scoffing the donuts given to him earlier by Falcemob

[Notso Swift]

And the Flaggie is supposed to be looking "down" the track while the observer looks "up" the track

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I kick myself sometimes because I do tend to disadvantage myself under yellows, a habit that I won't stop

There's your problem. You have to differentiate between backing off and 'backing off'. The smallest of lifts will suffice I reckon. You just want to be making sure you don't put your fastest lap in under a yellow!

As an aside, do you wait for the green light to come on or the red light to go out? It's motor racing, if you can gain the slightest advantage by whatever tactics you can get away with, you will. Depends on how much you want to beat the guy in front or behind you.

Trouble is, too many novices/youngsters watch the BTCC (is it still called that?) and assume that anything goes as the 'celebrity' drivers are rarely held accountable for their actions on the track; makes good TV see.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Actually it would be very difficult to flag and be an observer.

'Would be'?

For many people acting as a 'flobs' is a fact of life. In an ideal world we'd have two observers on every post; reality at a lot of meetings is that at some of the less busy posts some poor flaggie is trying to both flag & observe, with a team of one (a red badge if we're lucky) attempting to deal with incidents.

On the subject of lights/flags, I don't see it as a choice between one or the other - both have their place. I believe lights would be best used as a supplement to, rather than a replacement for, flags. One thing which would be advantageous is red lights all round the circuits - while dealing with a major at a post a mile or so from the start line, the red flag can take what seems like a VERY long time to get round the circuit. (or we could do it like bikes do - an immediate red flag at all posts).

One point nobody has ever made in these flag/lights debates is that it's not just drivers who need to see yellows - incident marshals also need to see them! While not being naive enough to believe that it offers me ANY protection, I will not go trackside without seeing a yellow flag displayed - at least the driver who hits me can't say he wasn't warned!

[Grandslammer]

Came across this in the Blue Book (on-line version)
Section C 10.1.7
The Observer is responsible for the use of the flashing yellow warning lights when the control of the lights is from the observers post.

[Chigley]

There's your problem. You have to differentiate between backing off and 'backing off'. The smallest of lifts will suffice I reckon. You just want to be making sure you don't put your fastest lap in under a yellow!

I do hope you were talking with your tongue in your cheek. If not, I'm appalled that any member of this forum would suggest such a thing. The implication is that you care little about the well being of marshals who are trackside deaing with a incident and are more concerned with achieving a fast lap/position.

Ian

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

As an aside, do you wait for the green light to come on or the red light to go out? It's motor racing, if you can gain the slightest advantage by whatever tactics you can get away with, you will.

Always has been red light going out.

But what you advocate as slight backing off is still not within the spirit of taking into consideration marshals on the track which could be the problem. You really should slow down not just back off slightly.

[MG Racer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Always has been red light going out.

But what you advocate as slight backing off is still not within the spirit of taking into consideration marshals on the track which could be the problem. You really should slow down not just back off slightly.

Isn't this just about being considerate to those who give there time for free so that we can go racing? I would rather go home coming last because I backed off and was safe through an incident than take a marshall out and have that on my conscience.

If we all play by the same rules then its not a problem. The issue comes when you back off and the person behind then uses that as a way to catch up and then get past you after the incident.

There is not a easy answer but I know what I do and I prefer it that way.

[dtype38]

Indeed a tricky situation, but everyone has a different idea of how much you slow for a yellow flag. I've personally been in a race where a novice driver saw a flag marshall waving a yellow flag at him and slowed down to a near crawl. This very nearly caused mayhem behind as more and more cars had to take emergency action not to run into the back of (or overtake) the car in front of them!

Then there's the situation when you see a car ahead slowing down with a hand out of the window and some obvious mechanical problem. He is pulling off into a safe position by the tyre wall and you see the flag marshal at the preceeding post hang the yellow out. In this case no one is in danger, there are no marshalls on the track (yet perhaps), and the actual track ahead of you is completely clear. Might I hesitantly suggest that keeping to the side of the track away from the sticken car, and backing off a few percentage points is quite sufficient.

So how quick is not slow enough, and how slow is too slow? It's so subjective that there will always be those who take advantage. There'll even be those who gain advantage and disadvantage at the same time, depending on what the drivers in front and behind do.

IMHO the only way to try and get some sort of consistency is simply say that under a yellow flag everyone must slow down to a safe speed and maintain a steady gap to the car ahead. If anyone disobeys then they're disqualified, end of story. At least then everyone knows what's being measured and where they stand.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

IMHO the only way to try and get some sort of consistency is simply say that under a yellow flag everyone must slow down to a safe speed and maintain a steady gap to the car ahead. If anyone disobeys then they're disqualified, end of story. At least then everyone knows what's being measured and where they stand.

I think we had something like that with the black and yellow quartered flag, it didn't work.

[Stephen Green]

To a degree this problem could be overcome if the Clerk of the Course were to brief all drivers about what he expects in yellow flag situations?

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Chigley

I do hope you were talking with your tongue in your cheek.

I've tried that but I still got into trouble.

Originally Posted by Chigley

If not, I'm appalled that any member of this forum would suggest such a thing. The implication is that you care little about the well being of marshals who are trackside deaing with a incident and are more concerned with achieving a fast lap/position.

Ian

Where does it say that a yellow flag indicates marshalls on track? As a racing driver (and if you are any good) you should be aware of everything going on around you. My actions when a yellow was being waved depended very much on the situation. A car 100 yards in front of you spinning is going to bring out a yellow and there is unlikely to be marshals on track. A car that has gone off and hit the armco is likely to have marshall attendance and you would take all necessary precautions as stated by the Blue Book.
Stamping on the brakes at the sight of a yellow flag can be much more dangerous than not backing off in some situations. Four cars nose to tail at 120mph and the lead cars suddenly wipes off 30mph at the first sight of a yellow could be a catastrophe; I've seen it happen, I was the fourth car....

Yeh, I had no regard for the marshalls safety

[R59]

The mandatory drivers briefing.... I remember those.....

A great "vehicle" for the CofC to tell the formula ford drivers "Don't do it today". Ahhh Don Trueman..... top banana! I digress.....And everyone else what he expects of them. You see a yellow, you lift off, slow down, be prepared to stop, hold position.

We should all be capable of judging the situation that's in front of us. Everything from a deliberate lift, to a stop and lend a hand in dire situations.

If not, do we deserve the licence.

Rob.

[Clive]

All competitors have access to the Blue Book which quite clearly says:

J-16 (e) Yellow flag stationary:
Danger, slow down sufficiently to ensure that full control of vehicle can be maintained. No overtaking.
J-16 (f) yellow flag waved:
Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary. (This signal may be supplemented by flashing yellow light(s), as an added warning.)


J-16.1 (j) Red Flag: Immediately cease driving at racing speed and proceed slowly, without overtaking, and with maximum caution to pits or start line obeying Marshal’s instructions, and being prepared to stop should the track be blocked.
(J-5.4 Should it be necessary to stop a race for any reason this will be done by waving the red flag at the startline
J-5.4.1 competitors will be warned that the race has been stopped by the simultaneous waving of the Red flag at all Flag marshalling posts.)

There is nothing ambiguous there and drivers are expected to have read and agreed to abide by these regulations, so bl**dy well do it, especially if marshals are trackside, their only protection is that 2'x2' piece of yellow, and any driver overtaking or not slowing down in my sector in that situation if I am the observer will have his b**lox nailed to the floor (assuming it's a male!). There is NO excuse. If you cant see the flag you shouldnt be driving, let alone racing

So, Peter, good on you and everyone else who follows your example

[Chigley]

Well said Clive!!!

I wonder NZ has a different definition of yellow flag interpretations in their version of The Blue Book. Can anyone from NZ expand on this?

Ian