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Old 17 Feb 2020, 08:48 (Ref:3957956)   #31
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Originally Posted by bluesport View Post
Better to have a quad cam more modern design.
4 valve engines have been around since 1912 so not particularly modern in reality, just different engineering approaches.

Can't see much in the way of fan difference dependant on engine design so think one way or the other would be a low priority for any series running along the lines suggested.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 09:19 (Ref:3957974)   #32
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I don't see why there couldn't be Commodores racing next year unless they bring forward the regulation change, even if it's without Holden money.
Probably safe to say there will be 12 or more ZB's on the grid next year.

Of the current 16 Commodores. This announcement only affects 2 of them. The other 14 receive zero GM dollars.

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Old 17 Feb 2020, 09:32 (Ref:3957976)   #33
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Honest question: What does a manufacturer bring these days outside of dollars? Aren't they little more than a large sponsor to the sport these days?

And if not, surely this is the wake up call Supercars needs to run the sport without any manufacturer involvement.
Go one step further and dump the whole shebang as it is now and change it to GT3 cars ala Bathurst 12 hour. They keep blowing their own trumpet about how "world class" V8 Supercars is, but lets be honest it's not because no one else runs them so you have no competitors from other countries to compare against. I think it would be much better viewing, and mix up the order as different cars suit different tracks. Just have some rule that there can only be a maximum number of any one model of car on the grid, to stop it turning into one make racing after a few years.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 20:43 (Ref:3958075)   #34
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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
4 valve engines have been around since 1912 so not particularly modern in reality, just different engineering approaches.

Can't see much in the way of fan difference dependant on engine design so think one way or the other would be a low priority for any series running along the lines suggested.
I take your point, maybe I should have said better design, imo anyway.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 23:54 (Ref:3958120)   #35
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Honest question: What does a manufacturer bring these days outside of dollars? Aren't they little more than a large sponsor to the sport these days?

And if not, surely this is the wake up call Supercars needs to run the sport without any manufacturer involvement.
It's not that easy, I'm afraid, because cars are not like most other products.

People have emotionally charged relationships to their cars in a way that they don't have for dishwashers, energy drinks or gas stations. And thus, the involvement of car manufacturers gives people an easy entry point into the series, as they can root for "their" manufacturer, i.e. the one that made the car in their driveway. Without a team to follow it really is just 'guys going in circles', but if you have manufacturers involved, you give people an easy thing to latch onto and if "their guys" are doing well, it actually validates their purchasing decisions, which - let's face it - is one of the biggest investments people usually make in their lives, so it's something they naturally want to feel good about.

Now, in non-motorsports people separate themselves into 'tribes' according to geographic proximity, i.e. they tend to follow the team from their hometown or their country's national team, but all attempts to establish something like that in motorsports like A1 GP or that formula series where teams linked up with soccer clubs have fallen flat.

Then, there's also the aspect of credibility that manufacturer involvement lends to a series, because billion dollar companies racing - and spending - in a series is seen as a sign that the series is important - and not just 'guys going in circles' again.

The only other product that people are as emotionally invested in and lends itself as well to tribalism as cars are probably mobile phones with the whole Samsung/Android vs Apple thing, but good luck getting those brands involved involved in racing as sponsors, let alone in a more significant way as owners or designers.

Series like Formula 2 or ELMS actually give us a pretty good glimpse at what "manufacturer free" racing is like - and guess what? - there just aren't a whole lot of people following that, even though the racing is as good or better than in F1, the WEC or IMSA. But without manufacturers involved they just lack a certain "je ne sais quoi".

So all in all, car manufacturers actually
do bring a lot to racing that other sponsors don't.

Last edited by Speed-King; 18 Feb 2020 at 00:01.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 00:24 (Ref:3958131)   #36
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Originally Posted by bluesport View Post
Better to have a quad cam more modern design.
Not even. LS has more torque and less weight up high. It is why the Holdens or HSV's used to always belt Fords in the comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Driver TBA View Post
Of the current 16 Commodores. This announcement only affects 2 of them. The other 14 receive zero GM dollars.
This is right. Actually I wonder how much GM dollars RBR even got.

They funded development of the ZB on their own, and paid for it by charging other teams for the parts - so Holden didn't pay for it anyway.

I guess they paid to have the name on the side, but they are kinda irrelevant to the actual car.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 00:50 (Ref:3958136)   #37
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It's not that easy, I'm afraid, because cars are not like most other products.

People have emotionally charged relationships to their cars in a way that they don't have for dishwashers, energy drinks or gas stations. And thus, the involvement of car manufacturers gives people an easy entry point into the series, as they can root for "their" manufacturer, i.e. the one that made the car in their driveway. Without a team to follow it really is just 'guys going in circles', but if you have manufacturers involved, you give people an easy thing to latch onto and if "their guys" are doing well, it actually validates their purchasing decisions, which - let's face it - is one of the biggest investments people usually make in their lives, so it's something they naturally want to feel good about.

Now, in non-motorsports people separate themselves into 'tribes' according to geographic proximity, i.e. they tend to follow the team from their hometown or their country's national team, but all attempts to establish something like that in motorsports like A1 GP or that formula series where teams linked up with soccer clubs have fallen flat.

Then, there's also the aspect of credibility that manufacturer involvement lends to a series, because billion dollar companies racing - and spending - in a series is seen as a sign that the series is important - and not just 'guys going in circles' again.

The only other product that people are as emotionally invested in and lends itself as well to tribalism as cars are probably mobile phones with the whole Samsung/Android vs Apple thing, but good luck getting those brands involved involved in racing as sponsors, let alone in a more significant way as owners or designers.

Series like Formula 2 or ELMS actually give us a pretty good glimpse at what "manufacturer free" racing is like - and guess what? - there just aren't a whole lot of people following that, even though the racing is as good or better than in F1, the WEC or IMSA. But without manufacturers involved they just lack a certain "je ne sais quoi".

So all in all, car manufacturers actually
do bring a lot to racing that other sponsors don't.
A good post with some interesting points. So lets say they go to MARC cars and have maybe five different bodies on them, a Mustang, a Kia, a BMW, a Merc and say a Lexus. That still gives some level of tribalism, you can follow your favourite marque, but the necessity of relying on a manufacturer disappears, no? If the racing is great, if the stars are in the cars, surely all the ingredients are still there to remain popular?
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 01:13 (Ref:3958138)   #38
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Better to have a quad cam more modern design.

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Not even.
And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 18 Feb 2020 at 01:23.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 03:10 (Ref:3958154)   #39
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Speedcafe have reported that Roland Dane is meeting with GMH later this week about 2021.

Early contract payout and Roland to homologate "888 Hogsters" for 2021.

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Old 18 Feb 2020, 03:48 (Ref:3958155)   #40
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It's Camaro time then. HSV is a their own company and they are importing the Chev trucks and doing the conversion and the Camaro. The HSV dealers will keep on selling them so it will be time to change over, just without the small % of the budget that Holden was tipping in.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 03:54 (Ref:3958156)   #41
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I get the feeling Roland has something up his sleeve here and I'm not sure its a Camaro.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 05:33 (Ref:3958163)   #42
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Obviously the Camaro was a halo car that hasn't adequately replaced the HSV Commodores in sales numbers.
They will be a tough proposition for dealers who have been knocking $20k off them recently and still not moving much product.
As a sideline to a struggling Holden franchise they might have made sense but hard to sell profitably on their own. Who will take the financial haircut when Holden isn't ?
Certainly wouldn't hurt to have Camaros and Mustangs competing on the MARC platform for the next 5 or so years at least. The MARC 111 was already planned with a Camaro body and LS power.
Even though FIAT have temporarily canned the Challenger (to be badged as a Charger for Australia WTF ???) it would also have a supporter base.
Add the option of the Germans, Koreans and Japanese and I think it would be a pretty good series without requiring manufacturer support.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 19:58 (Ref:3958327)   #43
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I struggle to believe that manufacturer tribalism exists anymore (other than the odd die hard).

The drivers are the stars - not the manufacturers. We have a diverse grid full of interesting characters. Make people SVG fans rather than Holden fans
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 20:46 (Ref:3958335)   #44
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...
You said it much better than I would have but Mixer will never learn.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 22:43 (Ref:3958351)   #45
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...
Still waiting for the vtec to kick in.

It is a nonsense argument to talk about 4V being high tech. It isnt. Is the DOHC 24V VCT motor in my FGX any more high tech than the same motor with VCT, SOHC and 12 valves in an AU? Not really. But it is usefully more powerful.
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