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View Poll Results: Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?
Yes, within 1-2 years 7 26.92%
Maybe later (in 3-6 years time?) 6 23.08%
Never 13 50.00%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 15 Jun 2020, 15:39 (Ref:3982199)   #16
Matt K
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You're presuming that Supercars will continue to exist, which is exactly the troublesome point!

You said so yourself...
Yes, I am presuming that Supercars will continue to exist because I still believe that there is a chance for a championship like this. Yeah, I can't see Hyundai/Kia joining now but it doesn't mean I think Supercars will become Ford only. Yes, I fear it a bit but I think we have still 2021 for Holdens and then who knows what can happen. Times are hard but no one said it's over.

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So no new manufactuers and just Ford vs Ford
I didn't say it, I commented only about Hyundai/Ford.

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Supercars was and is so reliant on General Motors Holden, that very soon when Holden no longer exists, it will cast doubt on the very existence of the Supercars category.
There is, sadly, truth in it, although never say never. Triple Eight and/or Walkinshaw may do something with Chevrolet and still it's not completely impossible to see BMW, for example, in whatever capacity.

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Meanwhile TCR is reasonably cost effective touring car racing with a wide variety of brands. It's arguably the perfect category for the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000km race. The cars are a bit slow and sound bad, but that doesn't matter if the on-track action and battles are good -- having an influx of high quality teams, drivers and sponsors from Supercars would very much help that cause.
I disagree. Okay, it's cheap and the category as a whole is quite healthy comparing to Supercars but after so many years of fast and powerful cars, ATCC switching championships to TCR would be a bit laughable and disappointing. Bathurst 1000 with TCR cars? A bore fest.
Of course this is my view but I just don't think TCR is a good solution for championships like Supercars or even BTCC in Britain. Once again, this is only my personal view, but if Supercars ceased to exist and TCR would become ATCC then I would lose interest in it completely. Australia is far far away from me after all
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 01:32 (Ref:3982261)   #17
Casper
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ignoring all the motorsport problems in the class such as type of cars etc which is always the topic of conversation, if it does not make sense commercially then there is no future. Two issues there, Archer getting out and the media returns going through the floor so the BUSINESS model does not make sense any longer. Things have changed in the last decade and the environment SC used to depend on for its existance no longer exists. The changes everyone thinks are needed are in fact minor issues in the whole thing.
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 10:48 (Ref:3982307)   #18
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ATCC switching championships to TCR would be a bit laughable and disappointing. Bathurst 1000 with TCR cars? A bore
Was the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 laughable and a borefest when Group C was dropped for the slower and more standard looking Group A?
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 11:08 (Ref:3982310)   #19
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Is TCR the same as Group A?
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 12:11 (Ref:3982316)   #20
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Was the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 laughable and a borefest when Group C was dropped for the slower and more standard looking Group A?
Did some people think so in 1985?

Absolutely.

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Old 16 Jun 2020, 13:04 (Ref:3982324)   #21
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Time will tell, I think TCR cars are boring - adversely to Group A because Group A was slow but still more exciting than TCR. In my opinion Supercars are a great platform and it's astonishing to me because in Europe there so many racing fans who think this is one of the best series in the world while Australians keep moaning.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 01:52 (Ref:3982396)   #22
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Did some people think so in 1985?

Absolutely.
Then some people were quite hard to please

The 1985 James Hardie 1000 is one of the best ‘unfiltered’ 1000km races ever held at the mountain, and at the time was the best race in years
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 02:21 (Ref:3982397)   #23
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You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:01 (Ref:3982412)   #24
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so many racing fans who think this is one of the best series in the world while Australians keep moaning.
It has potential. It was great in the BA Falcon and VF Commodore days. It was still solid in the FGX Falcon and VF Commodore days, albeit the field was getting a bit small (and still is), and ticket prices are too expensive in order to prop up the RECs (and still are, $250 for a four-day ticket for example).

However now, they are racing a mutant Mustang and an obsolete Holden Insignia, they have no commitments from any manufacturers for 2022 onwards, they have no plans on technical regulations going onwards... It's far from ideal IMO.

Some of the racers' racers are still here like your Joneses, Kellys, Johnsons & Walkinshaws which is good (others like the Morrises, Mundays, and Rogers however, have given it away), but are they provided with any vision from management on where the category will be in five years time?

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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:05 (Ref:3982414)   #25
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I can't believe the number of people throwing dirt on a breathing body and calling it a corpse. Are Supercars in a bit of trouble? No doubt. But it could take a few decisions and all of a sudden their commercial model could be brought back under control, WITHOUT requiring marques to financially prop up the series. Something like racing MARC II cars would dramatically drop the costs and still be quick and exciting. Lets not forget, Ford werent in the series in any official capacity at the end of the FG Falcon cycle. Life went on. Sure a TV contract propped it up, but I'm not convinced Fox wont want the Supercars (at a reduced rate) in the future.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:12 (Ref:3982416)   #26
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I'm not convinced Fox wont want the Supercars (at a reduced rate) in the future.
Being on Fox makes it more difficult to find sponsors (or attract new or casual fans), yet Supercars administration can't see that... It's baffling.

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Something like racing MARC II cars would dramatically drop the costs and still be quick and exciting.
The European Union is going to continually cut motor vehicle emissions every year until 2032. Australia won't do that, but Supercars probably still needs to do something to acknowledge this transition.

Replacing the 5.0L engine with a turbocharged ~2.0L engine that produces the same 635hp but more efficiently (even without a hybrid system) could be one way to embrace the downsized future.

It would allow you to save about 50-70kg of weight on the front end of the car too (between a cast iron V8 and an alloy-block I4), quite the handling improvement!

Here is an example of a ~600hp Ford Ecoboost inline-four engine:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make...ost-read-find/

As in the Group A days when there was Sierra, 240, Starion, and DR30 Skyline with inline-fours, these kinds of engines sound great and are very fast and exciting indeed. It would be welcome return back to the turbocharged future that seemed so bright in the 1980s, before the (arguably) regressive ban on turbocharging in the 1993 ATCC came along.

For "no replacement for displacement" advocates, when downsize turbocharging seemed inevitable back in 1990, you've instead been able to delay it for 30 years! So you've already done rather well!

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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:47 (Ref:3982424)   #27
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A four-cylinder format may be the best chance of attracting a second manufacturer. (When I say the turbo four should be more efficient, I mean modern direct-injection, ultra lean combustion, high compression and so on should allow quite big gains in thermal efficiency compared to the current port injected 10:1 engines and thus allow for completing the races on less fuel. A more modern N/A engine would also have many of these advantages.)

Since the Toyota Supra comes with a four-cylinder option, the German coupes all have a four-cylinder, the Hyundai Genesis G70 sedan has a turbo four cylinder, as does the Alfa Romeo Giulia sedan, Mazda are rumoured to be working on RWD sedan or coupe on a shared platform with Toyota and Lexus...

There might need to be two different chassis for each coupe and sedan. But you only need one more manufacturer in addition to Ford and it should be OK.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 17 Jun 2020 at 08:53.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 10:33 (Ref:3982446)   #28
Matt K
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
It has potential. It was great in the BA Falcon and VF Commodore days. It was still solid in the FGX Falcon and VF Commodore days, albeit the field was getting a bit small (and still is), and ticket prices are too expensive in order to prop up the RECs (and still are, $250 for a four-day ticket for example).

However now, they are racing a mutant Mustang and an obsolete Holden Insignia, they have no commitments from any manufacturers for 2022 onwards, they have no plans on technical regulations going onwards... It's far from ideal IMO.

Some of the racers' racers are still here like your Joneses, Kellys, Johnsons & Walkinshaws which is good (others like the Morrises, Mundays, and Rogers however, have given it away), but are they provided with any vision from management on where the category will be in five years time?
Yes, I get your point of view and agree with it, however, Gen3 is still in the making and I'm sure everyone is vocal enough to make 'new' Supercars cheaper, less aero-dependant and possibly even more exciting. I still feel this is not out of control.
Yeah, the manufacturers factor is a bit worrying for the time being but Supercars are still not as factory-dependant sport as the DTM for example, which faces a huge crisis after withdrawal of Audi. In Supercars it's a bit different.
As you guys say, there are still areas to work on and the advantage of Supercars is, that even despite TCR Australia's existence, Supercars still is the top motorsport series in Australia. It doesn't have the same problems as DTM, for example. I may be a bit too optimistic about it but I really believe Supercars in not on its deathbed and it can still thrive.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 14:25 (Ref:3982477)   #29
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Yes, I get your point of view and agree with it, however, Gen3 is still in the making......

I may be a bit too optimistic about it but I really believe Supercars in not on its deathbed and it can still thrive.
The problem with Gen 3 is what car(s) is it going to be built around, that is the biggest mystery. Optimism at this time is to be applauded as most onlookers are cautious with very little optimism.
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Old 18 Jun 2020, 02:19 (Ref:3982558)   #30
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Part of the issues fans have to do with Supercars is the politics of it and the way the organisation in charge has conducted itself and run the series and treated motor racing fans over the years.

The spectacle of big RWD V8 sedans themselves has never really been questioned

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You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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Unreliable? The reliability of the new Group A cars far exceeded the reliability of Group C cars.

Not to mention in 1985 we had 1st and 2nd on the same lap at the end, something that had only happened in a Hardie once in the preceding seven years under Group C rules
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