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View Poll Results: Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?
Yes, within 1-2 years 7 26.92%
Maybe later (in 3-6 years time?) 6 23.08%
Never 13 50.00%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 18 Jun 2020, 04:24 (Ref:3982560)   #31
mayhem
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mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by one five five View Post
Part of the issues fans have to do with Supercars is the politics of it and the way the organisation in charge has conducted itself and run the series and treated motor racing fans over the years.

The spectacle of big RWD V8 sedans themselves has never really been questioned
I think that you think thats more important than it is. Perhaps with rusted on 'motorsport' fans it might be significant, but with the pure Supercar fans, I doubt theyd know or care.

I'd say the biggest issue fans have (either casual or hardcore fans) is the TV broadcast deal, something Ive said the entire time was a mistake. But given the rock and hardplace Supercars (and the rest of televised sports) find themselves in, I think most fans would forgive Supercars if they are forced back into a similar (although reduced) deal this time.

Its then up to Supercars to save themselves from themselves by making the sport far more financially sustainable.
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Old 19 Jun 2020, 03:34 (Ref:3982749)   #32
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Its then up to Supercars to save themselves from themselves by making the sport far more financially sustainable.
I know I have been harping on it but that is not the core issue, they can reduce the costs to zero but out there in the real world if it has no commercial future then it is a dead duck. If SC can demonstrate to both the teams and the media companies that they have a sustainable product with good long term prospects and the teams can be rewarded adequatly meaning a good ROI then they will never have a problem selling RECS. The goose that laid the golden egg (television free or paid) appears to be on life support so the prime source of funding has disappeared and that instantly means the commercial reality took a big deep nose dive.
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 04:41 (Ref:3982858)   #33
2 litre Touring Car Star
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I think that you think thats more important than it is. Perhaps with rusted on 'motorsport' fans it might be significant, but with the pure Supercar fans, I doubt theyd know or care.
Of course it's important. Supercars hasn't "maximised its fanbase" otherwise. Therefore don't put themselves in the strongest positions of power in Australian motorsport.

All you done is demonstrate that supercars fans aren't actual motor racing fans. Therefore, their opinions should not be considered when it comes to wider Australian motorsport issues.

Like giving ATCC status to the TCR series. Supercars fans don't care, so CAMS/MA may as well hand it to the most authentic touring cars series in Australia.

Last edited by 2 litre Touring Car Star; 20 Jun 2020 at 04:51.
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 05:20 (Ref:3982860)   #34
2 litre Touring Car Star
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A bit premature there aren't you?
Nope.

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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
You're talking about a series where the promoter still owns more than half the cars and are propping up the rest and if the wind blows in a different direction TCR would disappear just as quickly as GT-P did. It is eerily similar.
Considering the nature of your posts since I have been lurking, you wish it's eerily similar.

The promotor may own more than half the cars, but they're only putting their money where their mouth is. To attract meaningful tv coverage nowadays, as something more substantial than amateur racing, ARG have to prop up the initial running. Your posts on this topic make it out like this is a big deal when it isn't

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Also a series that is being splintered from within by eTCR. VW & Audi won't be the last to go.
I like your doomsday narrative you use on this topic. Holden have left the series that commercially has revolved around them. But VW stopping tcr is now a big deal.

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Other than Honda and Hyundai nobody else is really serious about it,
That's fine. But it's more than what supercars has got.

Manufacturer involvement in motorsport has always been fluid. TCR enables participants to use a wider number of cars even if they don't have manufacturer support.

TCR Australia, for whatever weakness your so keen to point out, is as much about smaller car racing reestablishing itself in Australia as it is about anything else. It had a great debut season. There was a lot of goodwill amongst many Australian motor racing fans.

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the rest of the cars quite literally wouldn't make 1/4 race distance at Bathurst.
Considering the point of iconic races like Bathurst (Indy 500 & Le Mans) is to break cars, tcr is perfect! Down the track, it might instigate manufacturers to come up with cars to handle the challenge.


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GRM's cars show flashes of speed but don't finish races anywhere.

The Lynk and Co will win WTCR again and I bet fold up their tent without being BoP'ed in any national series.
Tbf, nobody cares atm.

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GRM, Wall Racing and HMO put on a show, but they are not prime time anything.
You're too busy interested in the superficial aspect of "the show". It's not important.

Either way, 3 serious teams is enough for a substantial series. It's pretty much every series in the world for decades. The rest can be plucky underdogs racing for their own purpose. As opposed to guys who are not good enough to be midfield in F1, and most not good enough to be in an F1 field, racing as "professionals".
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 05:40 (Ref:3982866)   #35
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There is no comparison. All these years of ATCC + more than 20 years of Supercars is the heritage of VASC while
There's no heritage in supercars. Supercars exits as a time warp embellishing one superficial aspect of Australian motor racing.


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TCR Australia is just some poor national championship that is part of global regulations made for cheap racing, which
TCR is not cheap. it's less expensive than a lot of other classes, but it's not cheap.

It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the secnnd best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport.

It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars.


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have their own 'top' championship - WTCR.
WTCR doesn't matter in Australia. All that matters in Australia is that there's an outlet for smaller cars in Australia. Which btw are now big cars cars. 2 litre cars in Australia are now big cars. Anything above 2 litre is antiquated.

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Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
Supercars are way more exciting and better racing cars than TCR and winning Supercars means that you really ARE Australian Touring Car Champion. Winning TCR Australia means winning just some national championship of minor importance.
Supercars "excitement" exaggerated. "better racing" is always with the lower powered cars.

Minor importance? I'll copy & post the above quote.

It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the second best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport.

It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars.


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Should I go on?
Okay, I understand, Supercars is now in a difficult situation but it is just time for a change, not to pretend the championship is now dead and unimportant. TCR Australia could be on its support bill as a feeder series but as long as Supercars exists this will be the premier motorsport category in Australia.
Supercars is not a motor racing championship. It's an entertainment product that has hijacked Australian motorsport to make money out of. It's designed to attract lightweight fandom who don't have a genuine interest in motor racing.
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 06:01 (Ref:3982867)   #36
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You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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"sexy" and "noisy" are subjective and in your case, superficial terms. The "noise" of a 5 litre V8 is exaggerated. "Sexy"? It's just a wing, front splitter and flared guards. Whoopee-do!

Referring to Group A as "slow" just shows a lack of knowledge and perspective.

Looking up the 1984 & 85 Bathurst shootout results, the Group A cars were only on average a few seconds slower than the last of Group C. There's absolutely no way anyone would've notice the difference.

"Naked cars" are just cars. People who like motor racing are interested in them.

That being the case, you obviously approve of super touring as a premier class. As they were as fast as the last of Group C at the mountain, with the disadvantage of having to do the chase.

On another note. It's not big deal if Australia continued to use Group C and avoid Group A. The change was made to defer the responsibility of homologation away from CAMS to the FIA
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 06:08 (Ref:3982868)   #37
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Whose sock puppet are you

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Old 20 Jun 2020, 06:18 (Ref:3982870)   #38
2 litre Touring Car Star
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2 litre Touring Car Star should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
While you may be allowed to personally insult me. Where am I wrong?
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 06:22 (Ref:3982872)   #39
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well you tell me the terms are subjective and then that I am wrong.

Group A got faster and sexier but in 1985 it was neither. My point of view is irrelevant. I was asked if "anybody" didn't like it when Group A took over. People didn't.

The cars were more plain, less reliable, and there were lots of cars people didn't see on the roads. These are facts.

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Old 20 Jun 2020, 11:15 (Ref:3982904)   #40
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"Sexy" is a subjective term.

Even within Group C. The Commodore was looked milder compared to the A9x Torana. Were people complaining about the Commodore?

Then as far as Ford is concerned, it's the reverse. The XC Falcon was a big ugly car compared to the XD and particularly XE.

Noisy? How much quieter could the Group A car could possibly have been?

The performance of the cars were inconsequential as no one would've been able to tell the difference. I don't know of any substantial evidence that Group A were less reliable, to the point where it detracted from following the ATCC and/or Bathurst.

The cars may have looked plain in comparison to Group C. Even then, Group A sped up the process of the road Group C would eventually have to go down. There would've been a point where the 3 litre class would have to be the main class, or chop down Class A from 6 to 4 litres. But then eventually it would go to 3 then 2 litres.

There were cars that people didn't see on the roads. But TCR doesn't have this problem.

Supercars is an odd case where the competing cars were the most relevant on Australian roads, to becoming the most irrelevant. The Commodore and Falcon have also been irrelevant for some time, it's not a new realisation.

In the case of TCR. Even if some of the competing cars are not popular, or popular cars are not participating like the Corolla, the fact they're 2 litre cars makes them relevant. Supercars doesn't even have a relevant set of regs.

Therefore the original question is not premature.
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 11:47 (Ref:3982907)   #41
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It is premature, if ARG ceased to function today, TCR in Australia is dead. TCR here right is a balloon ARG has pumped up.

If Supercars the organisation disappeared, the teams still exist and can put on a show.

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Old 20 Jun 2020, 12:43 (Ref:3982913)   #42
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Sorry this thread is pointless !
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 12:52 (Ref:3982916)   #43
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Sorry this thread is pointless !
Was trolling from the start

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Old 20 Jun 2020, 16:45 (Ref:3982952)   #44
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Well you tell me the terms are subjective and then that I am wrong.

Group A got faster and sexier but in 1985 it was neither. My point of view is irrelevant. I was asked if "anybody" didn't like it when Group A took over. People didn't.

The cars were more plain, less reliable, and there were lots of cars people didn't see on the roads. These are facts.

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Please explain this “less reliable” part

Group A proved infinitely far more reliable than Group C right from the off in 1985
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 23:58 (Ref:3982993)   #45
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Please explain this “less reliable” part

Group A proved infinitely far more reliable than Group C right from the off in 1985
63 car started the '84 James Hardie 1000. 29 were classified as finishers.

49 cars started the '85 James Hardie 1000. 23 were classified as finishers.

You do the math, but marginally but be a better description than infinitely
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