Is V8 Supercars (partially) responsible for the decline of car manufacturing in Oz

[SJA]

The key word in the thread title is 'partially', guys. Please remember that as you read through the thread. I am well aware that many, many factors were in force. I simply want to introduce one I'm not too sure many people have discussed.

One of the main factors surrounding the decline of Mitsubishi, Ford and now Holden is the large car race. Mitsubishi wanted to play with the big boys with the 380, simply because Ford and Holden had market share in the large car stakes. They failed, but as we know that's a entirely different story.

My hypothesis is would Ford and Holden have continued with the Falcon and Commodore respectively for so long if it weren't for V8 Supercars entry rules? (This year notwithstanding)

Clearly the large car market has been unviable in Australia for a long, long time. So why keep producing them?

It was this thought process that led be to V8 Supercars. Their entry requirements (only lightened recently with the introduction of COTF) for years consisted of something along the lines of: Australian built production cars of 4-door saloon/sedan construction, real-wheel drive, released with a V8 engine and a minimum Australia unit sale of X (quite high)... or something like that (you guys fill in the blanks, you know more than me).

Only the Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore fit that bill. If Ford and Holden ceased production of those cars 10 years ago (as they probably should have) what would they have been able to enter in V8 Supercars?.... That's right. Nothing!

So it ended up being a game of chicken. Neither were willing to pull out willingly, as it would give a monopoly to the other. Now where are we?

What do you guys think? Do you think V8 Supercars is partly responsible for the decline of local car manufacturing?

[peckstar]

I cant see the link.

Im not sure Ford and holden built cars with v8 supercars in mind .

for the last ten years we have operated under project blue print which were a significant step away from the road car anyway

[Umai Naa]

I don't think Ford and Holden would've put the cart before the horse, with regards to continuing to provide a car that had dwindling market share, in an effort to provide a suitable racecar for V8SC. Sure, they've both made some questionable decisions in the past, but that wouldn't have been one of them.

They could've used the ZC Vectra or Epica if the rules allowed, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that it wasn't a great seller. Same goes for the Mondeo. They know very well that motor racing compliments their marketing agenda, not the other way around.

I give it two more years before Ford pulls the pin on V8SC, Holden the year after. The rest will see out their contractual obligations around the same time, a new catagory will be born, rinse and repeat.

[xrystl]

IMHO I doubt that the V8s had anything to do with the timing of the intended departure of Ford and Holden from our shores as manufacturers , everything that Holden and Ford make has to be signed off by the suits in the US ($$$$ suits) who wouldn't give a rats for our V8 series as it doesn't earn them any $$$$ as the V8s don't sell cars- "Win on Sunday Sell on Monday" ended generations ago ; and the my Father bought a Ford/Holden so that became the family trend also ended because our Demographics have dramatically changed since that era.

[naca]

FPR and HRT do sort of have a "win on sunday, sell on sunday" mentality with FPV and HSV respectively, although there isn't much winning going on.

[Racenut]

I am sorry to hear about Ford and Holden ceasing production in Australia but I dont think V8 Supercar racing can cop any blame for the manufacturer continuing to build cars that people dont want to buy.

[peckstar]

i think its more the other way

V8 supercars was held back by ford and holden continuing to build large cars and threatening to take their bat and ball if other brands were introduced.

It was only as a result of diminishing sales and thus sponsorship were they able to look elsewhere

[valet_dave]

I doubt there's any direct relationship to the demise of Holden, but SJA does make an interesting point. I'm largely ignorant on this, but in the past, wasn't it fairly common for a manufacturer to perform a small production run of a modified vehicle to simply meet the rules of that era and provide a championship winning car that could raise their brand into the limelight?

It's been discussed to death already, but the COTF effectively said that vehicle manufacturers can only use V8 Supercars licenced property as an advertising space. It's not exactly what you would call promoting innovation and development in the manufacturing industry. But even before that, rules were tightened in a way that discouraged manufacturers from making a production run with the direct intention of winning races.

[TWRv12]

No. If they had a proper modular production process (like VW), they should be able to do a few different models in the same factory. Ford and GM have the problem of sometimes of only being able to make half the profit VW makes on the same type of car.

[RedZedMikey]

Originally Posted by SJA

Clearly the large car market has been unviable in Australia for a long, long time. So why keep producing them?

No, I don't see a link between V8SC and Holden/Ford stopping production.

As Devereaux said yesterday, vehicle manufacture in Oz has suffered the perfect storm - so many factors combining together against local production. One school of thought which I have not seen given much credence is that if large car manufacture is not viable - then small car manufacture here is even less viable given the selling price of the Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo competition in the market.

Back around 2000 this was a factor in Toyota converting their local Corolla line to manufacture of Avalons, and both Holden and Ford had already stopped manufacture of their smaller vehicles. The Cruze has not been a manufacturing success, and Ford kyboshed the local Focus before it got off the ground. Perhaps GM should have looked at a locally built Territory competitor rather than the Cruze - SUV's have been (to my distaste) a rising market.

Thus the discussion that GM/Ford weren't building the cars the public were buying is down to the fact that small cars were just not viable. Even today, with more small car volume, could they compete with Korea and Thailand?

[naca]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

No, I don't see a link between V8SC and Holden/Ford stopping production.

As Devereaux said yesterday, vehicle manufacture in Oz has suffered the perfect storm - so many factors combining together against local production. One school of thought which I have not seen given much credence is that if large car manufacture is not viable - then small car manufacture here is even less viable given the selling price of the Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo competition in the market.

Back around 2000 this was a factor in Toyota converting their local Corolla line to manufacture of Avalons, and both Holden and Ford had already stopped manufacture of their smaller vehicles. The Cruze has not been a manufacturing success, and Ford kyboshed the local Focus before it got off the ground. Perhaps GM should have looked at a locally built Territory competitor rather than the Cruze - SUV's have been (to my distaste) a rising market.

Thus the discussion that GM/Ford weren't building the cars the public were buying is down to the fact that small cars were just not viable. Even today, with more small car volume, could they compete with Korea and Thailand?

GM where never going to build an SUV here in Australia while ever they where able to import the Captiva from Korea.

Small cars built in Australia, whilst having a bigger global market wouldn't be price competitive to similar cars being built in Thailand, China, Japan or Korea. The proportion of small cars being produced in Japan is now dropping with companies such as Honda and Suzuki moving their small car manufacturing operations to Thailand.

[SJA]

So the Australian car manufacturing industry was damned if they did and damned if they didn't, is what people are saying?

Hard to be angry at the government (past and present) then, isn't it?

Sounds like natural selection. Sunrise, sunset!

[mountainstar]

I can remember way back in 1993 when this category got started I always thought, "what comes next?" and it's been in the back of my mind ever since. I thought there was some hope there for the Australian car industry but when 2008 came, I figured the future was going to change for sure and now it has.

I don't think V8SC has anything to do with it, like in the 1970's the car market has changed and V8SC will have to change with it and it appears to be doing so. Who would have thought you'd see Volvo in here 5 or 10 years ago.

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by SJA

The key word in the thread title is 'partially', guys. Please remember that as you read through the thread. I am well aware that many, many factors were in force. I simply want to introduce one I'm not too sure many people have discussed.

One of the main factors surrounding the decline of Mitsubishi, Ford and now Holden is the large car race. Mitsubishi wanted to play with the big boys with the 380, simply because Ford and Holden had market share in the large car stakes. They failed, but as we know that's a entirely different story.

My hypothesis is would Ford and Holden have continued with the Falcon and Commodore respectively for so long if it weren't for V8 Supercars entry rules? (This year notwithstanding)

Clearly the large car market has been unviable in Australia for a long, long time. So why keep producing them?

It was this thought process that led be to V8 Supercars. Their entry requirements (only lightened recently with the introduction of COTF) for years consisted of something along the lines of: Australian built production cars of 4-door saloon/sedan construction, real-wheel drive, released with a V8 engine and a minimum Australia unit sale of X (quite high)... or something like that (you guys fill in the blanks, you know more than me).

Only the Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore fit that bill. If Ford and Holden ceased production of those cars 10 years ago (as they probably should have) what would they have been able to enter in V8 Supercars?.... That's right. Nothing!

So it ended up being a game of chicken. Neither were willing to pull out willingly, as it would give a monopoly to the other. Now where are we?

What do you guys think? Do you think V8 Supercars is partly responsible for the decline of local car manufacturing?

Respectfully - you're completely wrong. V8s was a marketing tool for an existing car - not the reason for the car existing.

And bear in the mind the Commodore may not die. It may continue but be built in China or elsewhere. They still sell enough of them to justify making them - they just can't justify the costs of building them in Australia.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by SJA

Clearly the large car market has been unviable in Australia for a long, long time. So why keep producing them?

If Ford and Holden ceased production of those cars 10 years ago (as they probably should have) what would they have been able to enter in V8 Supercars?.... That's right. Nothing!

What do you guys think? Do you think V8 Supercars is partly responsible for the decline of local car manufacturing?

Disagree with your thought process for a range of reasons but I'm not going to simply repeat what others have said.

What I will say is that 10 years ago (2003) which is when you say Ford & Holden should have ceased production, The Commodore was Australia's top selling car with something like 20% or 21% of the market and the Falcon was (from memory) third overall, something like that.

No way should they have stopped production then. The market has moved in that time, the currency issues have hurt and times have changed but to suggest that the manufacturers should have seen this coming ten years ago is pure fantasy.

[SJA]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

Respectfully - you're completely wrong. V8s was a marketing tool for an existing car - not the reason for the car existing.

Maybe.

Look, I think you're right regarding Supercars being a marketing tool for an existing car (at the time). But did it eventually become something else?

If Holden dropped building the Commodore when they should have, they would have lost that massive brand presence and exposure only two manufacturers were allowed access to in this country. No way they were going to do that! Answer: Keep building the Commodore, keep us in Supercars, keep the exposure we are gifted through the sport. - even though economically we probably shouldn't build the Commodore at all anymore.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by SJA

Maybe.

Look, I think you're right regarding Supercars being a marketing tool for an existing car (at the time). But did it eventually become something else?

If Holden dropped building the Commodore when they should have, they would have lost that massive brand presence and exposure only two manufacturers were allowed access to in this country. No way they were going to do that! Answer: Keep building the Commodore, keep us in Supercars, keep the exposure we are gifted through the sport. - even though economically we probably shouldn't build the Commodore at all anymore.

Nah - that's the tail wagging the dog. The amount Holden or Ford spend on racing V8s is a significant minority of their annual marketing budget and a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of running the company.

The reason that manufacturers go racing is to give the brand a good image and sell cars. They don't sell cars to allow them to go racing (maybe with the exception of Colin Chapman, Carroll Shelby and Enzo Ferrari).

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by SJA

Maybe.

Look, I think you're right regarding Supercars being a marketing tool for an existing car (at the time). But did it eventually become something else?

If Holden dropped building the Commodore when they should have, they would have lost that massive brand presence and exposure only two manufacturers were allowed access to in this country. No way they were going to do that! Answer: Keep building the Commodore, keep us in Supercars, keep the exposure we are gifted through the sport. - even though economically we probably shouldn't build the Commodore at all anymore.

I understand your theory - but it's not correct. V8 Supercars never influenced their manufacturing decisions - not one iota. GM have a policy of building where they sell (as much as possible). Up until Tuesday they were planning on continuing until at least 2020. Then the Govt started bagging them in parliament and it was clear they'd made up their mind about co-investment. So Deveareax called Detroit and the decision was made to pull the pin.

V8 Supercars would never have gotten a mention.