[LM24] Toyota plans Le Mans return with hybrid!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by TWK

Of course the whole premise of this thread...the Toyota Le Mans thing was BS... as Shakespeare said, "Much ado about nothing."

I disagree. The whole premise of this thread was clearly stated in the title, "Toyota plans Le Mans return with hybrid". Is that wrong?
"....confirmation...." Yes, confirmation that plans do exist within Toyota. Whether or not those plans ever come to fruition is another matter altogether.

Of course, if you feel misled by the thread title and my first post, you have my sincere and heartfelt apologies. Then again, it's all much ado about nothing really, isn't it!

[Justin Moran]

Touche! Monseuir Le Bentley!

[gwyllion]

The Toyota engine chief is not happy with F1 plans for KERS: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65226

Mauro Forghieri: "The environmental way of energy recovery and percentages of bio fuels is an interesting thing, but this aspect could be done more radically by defining a maximum amount of energy available, giving the engine designers full freedom to find the most suitable and imaginative technical solutions.

It's sad to realize that today, in order to see an ample variety of engines in a race, you need to look at endurance racing, at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, while F1 has become like F3 engine-wise, only faster and infinitely more expensive."

If ACO makes good rules for KERS, they surely can attract more manufacturers.

[AU N EGL]

maybe the old TURBINE powered Indy STP Granatilli will return.

[minimangler]

Mauro Forghieri, what a legend.

Yes, Toyota is half-assed in some ways, but it is willing to chop and change in the wrong places, and perserveres still with trulli. Their last le mans effort was pretty similar- almost too much money, and an expectation of victory.

[JAG]

That's a great interview.

[Pingguest]

I didn't know Mauro Forghieri is currently working for Toyota.

[gwyllion]

He is not. Sorry for the confusion. Just read the article I refer to.

Luca Marmorini, the engine chief of Toyota, said the F1 KERS is primitive because it is only allowed to work on the rear wheels. Mauro Forghieri has a similar option.

Luca Marmorini: "(They are) extremely simplified compared to the system we have on the Toyota Prius road car, or even on the Toyota Supra HV-R that won the 24 Hours of Tokachi. The potential of hybrid engines is immense, but the solution chosen by the FIA restricts itself to recover energy from the rear wheels. The parameters involved should be more. Let's say that, if the Supra that races at Tokachi recovers 70% of the dissipated energy, the system chosen for F1 restricts itself to 20%. This system will end up being the same for everyone too, and in this case we'll refer to it as an accessory, devaluing a great technical issue along the way."

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

He is not. Sorry for the confusion. Just read the article I refer to.

Luca Marmorini, the engine chief of Toyota, said the F1 KERS is primitive because it is only allowed to work on the rear wheels. Mauro Forghieri has a similar option.

The question that rises me, is whether Sportscar allow enough room for (road relevant) innovations. From that point of view, the Group C is still unequaled.

[gwyllion]

Audi developed FSI in Le Mans and claims that their 6 liter V12 TDI for Q7 is based on the Le Mans engine.

Perhaps the technology used in the Dow particle filters will see its way in production cars as well.

[gucom]

Indeed Le Mans / endurance racing has, in recent years, bred more relevant technology than F1... but as said, the group C formula was kinda brilliant...

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by gucom

Indeed Le Mans / endurance racing has, in recent years, bred more relevant technology than F1... but as said, the group C formula was kinda brilliant...

The (lack of) engine regulations and restrictions on fuel consumption indeed allowed room for innovations. Nowadays these innovations would be very relevant for road cars.

But any way, not all technology in motor racing is relevant for road cars. Think about most of the aerodynamics (such as ground effects) and tyres (slicks).

[prototype]

The Enzo has ground effects

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by prototype

The Enzo has ground effects

Yes, but only restricted to front and rear diffusers. Between the wheels it has a flat bottom. And its ride height is significantly higher than a race car.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Yes, but only restricted to front and rear diffusers. Between the wheels it has a flat bottom. And its ride height is significantly higher than a race car.

True,but more and more socalled "Supercars" make use of diffusers in sizes that are long banned in sportscarracing...
I see a lot of technology from sportscars coming to our roadcars. Think of Audi's "FSI" fuelinjection system,of carbonceramic brakes,even whole engine designs are being taken over(Porsche GT3 has much in common with the GT1 blocks).
At least realtime motorsports as sportscars and WRC DO actually provide our cars with innovative technology. Something which can no more be said from F1.

[vs346]

I think the last bit of relevant technology we've seen from F1 is paddle shifters and semi-auto gearboxes. You don't see many road cars with "mass dampers" around.

[ss_collins]

Perhaps the technology used in the Dow particle filters will see its way in production cars as well

Was in production cars before the race cars, I think all new pug diesels have them

[ss_collins]

I think the last bit of relevant technology we've seen from F1 is paddle shifters and semi-auto gearboxes.

gimmicks not real every day gains

You don't see many road cars with "mass dampers" around.

I am reliably informed (by my boss) that the Alvis TA14 has a mass damper

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Was in production cars before the race cars, I think all new pug diesels have them

Yes, of course particle filters are used in production cars.

Dow came up with a new porous ceramic material for diesel particle filters that has much better properties (lighter, less pressure loss, faster regeneration, ...). They are now showcasing it in Audi R10 and Peugeot 908, and it will find its way in production cars.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by GTfour

True,but more and more socalled "Supercars" make use of diffusers in sizes that are long banned in sportscarracing...
I see a lot of technology from sportscars coming to our roadcars. Think of Audi's "FSI" fuelinjection system,of carbonceramic brakes,even whole engine designs are being taken over(Porsche GT3 has much in common with the GT1 blocks).
At least realtime motorsports as sportscars and WRC DO actually provide our cars with innovative technology. Something which can no more be said from F1.

Talking about the undertray, the road relevance of ground effect aerodynamics depends on your definition. Many people only define ground effects as the use of venturis between the wheels. That's why it's said that Formula 1 has banned ground effects, while diffusers are still allowed.

Any way, I agree that Prototypes are significantly more relevant for road cars than Formula 1 cars. But I'd like to see even more room for relevant innovations.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by vs346

I think the last bit of relevant technology we've seen from F1 is paddle shifters and semi-auto gearboxes.

Well, semi-automatic gearboxes were used earlier in Group C than in Formula 1.

[Adam43]

Out of curiosity, by whom? I don't remember.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Porsche where testing it somewhere in 83-84 IIRC in the 956, or maybe that was a fully automatic box.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Porsche where testing it somewhere in 83-84 IIRC in the 956, or maybe that was a fully automatic box.

They were testing with the PDK gearbox, which was then used by Walter Rorhl to win the 1985 San Remo on the Audi Sport Quattro S1 Evo.

That gearbox is now called DSG in the VAG Group.

[chernaudi]

The 1985 962C used a version 5 speed seq. manual twin clutch(DSG) gearbox, based on that used in the Audi Quattro WRC cars in the mid-80s.

The first seq. manual gearbox was in the Chapperal 2F that ran at Le Mans in 1967. Either that, or it was the first dog clutch non-syncromesh/straight cut gear gearbox(similar to the NASCAR Jerico transmissions, and most road racing gearboxes)