Monaco Historic GP 2012

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by redlight

Would this have something to do with the speed differential and possibly the accident last year?

Maybe. What they did remark was that one 1600 cc car was right up with the 2000 cc cars in terms of lap times and the others were lapping at the same speed as the 1 litre cars in the other race.

[redlight]

That shows a huge difference in times and abilities Marcus, still a shame the quick ones will not get a run again. Perhaps better selection next time?

[Rudernst]

well well

who would have thought that:

Screamers are out, at least this time....
will values plummet ?

Sports Cars remain in, not my preference

The rest of the changes make a lot of sense

Bring back Formula Junior !!

And yes, I am terribly biased

Rudolf

[Henrik Pedersen]

It´s a pity that 1000 ccm, 1600ccm don´t have a race at Monaco.
A naturel historical developement at Monaco would have been to let a field of all 1000 ccm. cars race in 2012, and then in 2014 an all 1600 ccm.

[rogerwills]

Did anyone else spot this email this week changing rules for Race D and B?

What it means is that Cooper T51s will now move down into Race B (against Lotus 16s which have traditionally dominated this race).

But it means a big change to Race B as I believe a well driven T51 is quite a lot quicker than a 16. I can’t find lap times to compare. T51s are usually front-runners in Race D let alone moving them back against older machinery.

It was these Cooper's in period that were game-changers with the move to rear-engine and saw the demise of the front-engined GP cars.

My view was that they could perhaps have moved Cooper T45s down (2 litre cars) but left the 51s (2.5 litre) in Race D.

Several people have written to them asking them to reconsider but it doesn’t seem to be going to change.

Roger



From: historique@acm.mc [mailto:historique@acm.mc]
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 05:23 PM
To: historique@acm.mc <historique@acm.mc>
Subject: 8e Grand Prix de Monaco Historique

Cher Concurrent,

Nous vous informons que pour des raisons de cohérence historique le Comité d’organisation a décidé de modifier le pré-règlement pour les séries B et D comme suit ;
La Classe 1 de la Série D :
« Voitures de Formule 1 Ã* moteur arrière construites entre le 1er Janvier 1954 et le 31 Décembre 1960, équipées de moteur sans compresseur de 2500cm3 »
devient la Classe 4 de la Série B

Les séries apparaîtront comme telles dans le règlement.
**************************************************************************************************** ********************************
Dear Competitors,
We would like to inform you that for reasons of historic coherence the Selection Committee decided to modify the pre-regulation for Race B and D as follows :
Class 1 in Race D :
“Rear engined Formula 1 from 1954 to the end of 1960 having engines of 2,5 litre capacity unsupercharged”
becomes Class 4 in Race B

The Races will appear as such in our regulation.

Automobile Club de Monaco

Michel Ferry
Commissaire Général

Automobile Club de Monaco
23, bd Albert 1er
B.P. 464
MC 98012 MONACO CEDEX

Tél : +377 93 15 26 00
Fax : +377 93 15 26 40

[Marcus Mussa]

I vaguely remember a discussion at the ACM about this - the opinion was that rear engine cars were a fixture in 1959/60 so it would be historically correct to run them now together. Of course Lotus 16's were never as quick in the day as they are now! I don't remember any very competitive 2.5l rear engine cars running at the Monaco HGP in previous Pre-66 races although I believe Schryver put his Lotus 18 on pole one year (but missed the race). But I believe Dayton and Folch were as quick if not quicker with their Lotus 16's.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

I vaguely remember a discussion at the ACM about this - the opinion was that rear engine cars were a fixture in 1959/60 so it would be historically correct to run them now together. Of course Lotus 16's were never as quick in the day as they are now! I don't remember any very competitive 2.5l rear engine cars running at the Monaco HGP in previous Pre-66 races although I believe Schryver put his Lotus 18 on pole one year (but missed the race). But I believe Dayton and Folch were as quick if not quicker with their Lotus 16's.

Well, yes the 16s are surprisingly quick.
And the pre 66 race had some surprising winners, Hadfield in a 1,5 litre 4 cylinder 21 or the Sirocco...

Seriously....
I am not at all surprised that mails from drivers did not change anything.
You need to look further than laptimes
The front engined race at Monaco was always severely undersubscribed.
Last time I think 24 startes for 32 slots.

The pre 66 race was always oversubscribed.

Now this has evened out.
the pre 61 race will have a full grid and the pre 66 anyway.

Actually I bought a front engined Lotus 12 just because I had spotted this but it is not ready for this year

As I have to run my Lotus 18 in 1,5 litre form because it is a 1961 chassis, this will make my life easier.....

Rudolf

[rogerwills]

A few people are pulling entries from Race B due to the change.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

A few people are pulling entries from Race B due to the change.

Not surprising, as someone with a 1955 front engined F1 Connaught we know the feeling only too well - why go to all the trouble to be beaten by something that never raced against them in period.
It is bad enough that Bristol engined F2 cars are so highly developed that they are quicker than many F1 cars, but the rear engined cars are totally different (not to mention considerably cheaper!).

Technically they are right in that the rear engined cars did run in the same formula, but it was such a game changing 'innovation' that the front engined cars became obsolete over night - as Aston Martin & Scarab in particular found.

It's the same with Juniors but there are fortunately so many of them that it is easy to split them into front and rear engined - with correspondingly good races.
Unfortunately with the 50s F1s it does not encourage owners of front engined cars to use them, hence the small grids in recent years - which is a situation that this is not going to help.

As you say allowing the earlier leaf spring cars in might make sense but a T51 really is from a different era.

It also contradicts their splitting of the 3 litre grid, those cars all raced to the same formula (and most have the same engines & gearboxes) so why seperate them...

[delta]

Its the same with the 2 litre F3 cars with cars from 1976 to 1984. Massive difference in performance. BWTF I will just be very happy to get an entry and enjoy the weekend.
I am racing for fun!!!!!!

[Marcus Mussa]

Apparently they only had 16 entries for the original class B race (front engine 2.5 + rear engine F2) - against over 60 for the F3!!
Marcus

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Apparently they only had 16 entries for the original class B race (front engine 2.5 + rear engine F2) - against over 60 for the F3!!
Marcus

Marcus
when will the ACM mail out out the confirmations to the lucky ones ?
Rudolf

[delta]

I was going to ask Marcus if he could have a look through the ACM office window .The list of cars and drivers accepted might be on the notice board.
WDYR

[Marcus Mussa]

There is a final meeting on 23rd or 24th Feb - not sure I will be invited as I am trying to enter the thing myself... the last I heard there were some 60 entries for F3 and they were still coming in! May need to run two heats and a final...

[delta]

Well if you do not get in Marcus what" hope" have we got.
There's Bob and No!!!!!!!!!

[redlight]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

There is a final meeting on 23rd or 24th Feb - not sure I will be invited as I am trying to enter the thing myself... the last I heard there were some 60 entries for F3 and they were still coming in! May need to run two heats and a final...

Wish we could get this many in Classic F3! Will be intersting to see the UK entries!

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by redlight

Wish we could get this many in Classic F3! Will be intersting to see the UK entries!

Would You count me as an UK entry, IF I get in ??

Rudolf

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

Would You count me as an UK entry, IF I get in ??

Rudolf

The ACM has started to send out the the "Dear Mr. ..." letters.

They have turned down my Ralt RT1.

I am still hoping to get get in with my Lotus 18.


Rudolf

[RICHARD.T]

Letter or e-mail?

[Marcus Mussa]

They are contacting the refusals first, by email if they have one. So Rudolf I would think the Lotus 18 has been accepted, otherwise they would have told you. I had the Modus accepted (but I am not the driver!) and my entry with a Martini refused (I was given the choice, but I did not want to do the same race again with the Modus). I have been promised an entry in another race if I can find the right car!

[RICHARD.T]

It does seem to show how important the car is in geting an entry.
Perhaps, 80 to 90%.

Fingers crossed, as I have not heard yet. No news is good news.

[Marcus Mussa]

In F3 with 73 entries they had to refuse some good cars as well. They also tried to have a balance of makes, however in the case of Martini and Ralt most of the Monegasque entries were in these cars, and as they could not really refuse them there are rather too many of these cars. Apart from me I know they refused one Monegasque as he had no circuit experience at all. That being said I have not seen the entry list. I know some of the Chevrons were refused as there were too many (but I think you should be ok Richard!). In the other categories they have refused some surprising cars but usually they have their reasons - they do a lot of research and pick the brains of some quite knowledgeable people (no names!).

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by RICHARD.T

Letter or e-mail?

It was an email and not a letter, and it starts "Dear Sir".....

Rudolf

[RICHARD.T]

No e-mail yet!

I thought Marcus would have been quick in the Martini, in with a chance of a Podium.

[redlight]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

Would You count me as an UK entry, IF I get in ??

Rudolf

Of course Rudolf....you are one of the brits!