HANS devices in historic racing

[Greem]

I've clearly missed something other than the hearsay in this thread: is there a real risk HANS will be made compulsory in historics, or is this reaction coming from an unsubstantiated rumour?

[Al Weyman]

And if it does how long before the old lifing thing comes in so £650 every 3 years and no resale value. I would buy one if I knew I could sell it on when I hang up my helmet and as that time is rapidly approaching its a real concideration.

[midgetman]

Greem, this topic surfaces pretty regularly. Most of this thread dates from 2007. Al threatens to hang up his helmet, the MSA takes notice and the problem goes away.

Al, there's no talk of lifeing at all, and it would be 5 years not 3, and a HANS is around £400 not £650. Apart from that, spot on. Mind you, rumour has it that 2nd generation HANS devices don't legally fit on 1st generation helmets but I've not heard anything other than gossip on that.

JR, what's the difference between insisting on roll bars, belts and HANS devices? You're nannying the 120 driver by telling him to have bar & belts.

OT slightly, I see in MN this week that a proposal for rally drivers to have compulsory in-date FIA seats has been put on the back burner pending further investigation. One of the seat manufacturers has put forwards proposal for lifeing seats by usage rather than age. What happens one year in rallying seems to come to racing a couple of years later (FR gloves/FIA suits spring to mind).

So expect HANS devices to be mandatory in rallying first, where TBQH there seems to be much more threat of BSF-inducing accidents.

[john ruston]

We don't have belts bars or anything else in Pre War cars.

Assumed you don't need belts in 50's cars unless you have roll over bar.

Just an assumption,I don't know

Had the lot in Speedster as it had a sort of roll over hoop from new.

[Al Weyman]

You are obviously in the business that would profit from the sale of these things Max and good luck on you for fighting your corner but hanging up my helmet wasnt a threat just a fact due to my age not the threat of HANS. My point was if I laid out a not inconciderable sum of money I would like to think it had some resale value as it currently does and anyhow how on earth can the thing deteriate with age its bloody carbon fibre isnt it? OK maybe the tethers I can accept but not the main body of the thing when we are being always told simple plastic bags last thousands of years! If it is that flimsy that 5 years of use would make it inoperable then the thing is obviously not constructed correctly to save you in the first place which I assume it is so how can it be lifed, this needs sorting before they mandate anything. If its not my suspiction that its a cynical get rich quick scheme for the boys is confirmed.

[midgetman]

Firstly Al - I don't sell HANS devices so let's lay that one to rest. And I'm unlikely to, there's not enough money in them as a reseller. Can't live on less than the bank charges to buy 'em!

Secondly - there's never been a sniff of them being lifed - you've made that up. I only said 5 years 'cos that's the average life span of FIA stuff

[zefarelly]

if your less than half arsed I'd say lifing is closer to ten than 5 for FiA stuff.

frankly most stuff is worn out by then anyway ( used regularly

I don't see the point of HANS in most old nails, time and money would be better spent on decent seats and harnesses.

[Al Weyman]

Sorry Max it was only retaliation for your slightly sarcastic dig at me in your post previously I shouldnt have gone there, I have been told by several people that lifing was on the cards if thats nonscence then glad to hear it. It would definitely make me more relaxed about investing in one.

Zef your point is a good one 'If used regularly' problem is a lot arnt and yet still scrap thats why I think it should be more down to a visual inspection to decide if they are OK to use like an Mot if you like.

[midgetman]

Sorry All no offence intended on either post! None taken either.

[quantic]

Hi folks, I bought a HANS device this year (i've been racing an old tin top) mainly because I reckon that sooner or later they will become compulsory and then the price will shoot up (a la timing transponders..) Damned uncomfortable it is too, but nevertheless i've persevered with it as have quite a few other drivers - anyway next year i'll be racing an historic formula ford where it apperars that very few people use one. I wonder why that is? Cost? Reluctance to being 'nannied'? Some other reason?
By the way mine is a 20 degree jobbie - is that even suitable for the 'laying down' position in an old FF2000?
Just curious..

[jamesl]

No. 20 deg is for a saloon, 30 deg is more suitable for a single seater. The other main problem on historic single seaters is the installation points on the rear baulk head. They are are often too far apart and can cause the belts to fall off. If this is the case I would fabricate new fixing points on the car, to bring the fixing points closer togeather.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by quantic

Hi folks, I bought a HANS device this year (i've been racing an old tin top) mainly because I reckon that sooner or later they will become compulsory and then the price will shoot up (a la timing transponders..) Damned uncomfortable it is too, but nevertheless i've persevered with it as have quite a few other drivers - anyway next year i'll be racing an historic formula ford where it apperars that very few people use one. I wonder why that is? Cost? Reluctance to being 'nannied'? Some other reason?
By the way mine is a 20 degree jobbie - is that even suitable for the 'laying down' position in an old FF2000?
Just curious..

I think you will find James, that a lot of Historic SS guys dont use them for the reasons I stated earlier. Perhaps not, but that is what I think. Why spend a shed load of money to have your neck broken in a roll over on soft stuff.

[midgetman]

They said the same in the 50s about crash helmets....that the extra weight of the helmet would make broken necks more likely in an accident.

Any evidence Sam? Would be fascinated to know.

[midgetman]

Sorry to re-start this debate but I thought the following of interest, given its obvious historic connotations in the second section:

http://www.stand21.fr/nouveautes/new...ecurite-2.html

I'm not a Stand 21 dealer, so I'm not advertising! Just interesting to note the dangers that occur in seemingly low-powered cars.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Sorry to re-start this debate but I thought the following of interest, given its obvious historic connotations in the second section:

http://www.stand21.fr/nouveautes/new...ecurite-2.html

I'm not a Stand 21 dealer, so I'm not advertising! Just interesting to note the dangers that occur in seemingly low-powered cars.

WOW! brings home to you how hard a helmet has to work to keep you alive if the worst happens, also shows why car helmets are stronger and more rigid than bike helmets, I can't imagine a motorcycle accident that would cause the repeated high loading this one went through.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by midgetman

They said the same in the 50s about crash helmets....that the extra weight of the helmet would make broken necks more likely in an accident.

Any evidence Sam? Would be fascinated to know.

'fraid not midgetman. Common sense only. And I have no desire to spend the rest of my life researching I would say most guys on here who drive older Single Seaters will make up their own mind on using a HANS based on Common sense. It looks like I will be in a tin top next year so I may well invest in one.

[socram]

I tend to go along with those who want to make their own decisions regarding safety. Historically, the risk of death or serious injury was very high indeed 60 years ago.

Then over the years, we had hard hats, then seat belts and deaths reduced dramatically. Adding roll-over protection, whether full or half cage and the safety improved yet again, but not to the same degree.

It is the old 80/20 rule or the law of diminishing returns these days. Increasing roll over bars from 38mm to 40mm for example, is not really going to make a significant difference and some neck restraint systems are also only going to make a difference in a serious crash that has no side impact.

As I understand it, a Hans device is fixed, so if you drive a single seater with a sloping seat and also a saloon with an upright seat, you need two devices.

The Defnder ( http://www.chicane.co.nz/brand.asp?id=10) is adjustable and also has side straps so is possibly a better bet, but as stated above, some motorsport authorities or even sanctioned race series, haven't yet looked beyond the Hans and indeed, have made them compulsory.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Sorry to re-start this debate but I thought the following of interest, given its obvious historic connotations in the second section:

http://www.stand21.fr/nouveautes/new...ecurite-2.html

Whats interesting is that it says the seat broke......Surely that shouldn't have happened?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Sorry to re-start this debate but I thought the following of interest, given its obvious historic connotations in the second section:

http://www.stand21.fr/nouveautes/new...ecurite-2.html

I'm not a Stand 21 dealer, so I'm not advertising! Just interesting to note the dangers that occur in seemingly low-powered cars.

Good job by the helmet. But mostly unnecessary if the seat had done its job?

Belts are only one part of driver restraint.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

If there is anyone out there who still questions the effectiveness of a HANS device, have a look at http://www.fiainstitute.com/news/Pag...mber_118775717.

Regards

Jim

[Peter Mallett]

A good post, thanks Jim.

[Al Weyman]

I dont think anyone questions its value as such more the price and the amount of extra work and expence involved fitting and using the thing when there other alternatives I believe that work as well and are not so fussy with belt angles and seat type and are cheaper to boot.

[Tim Falce]

What expense, apart from buying it, and extra work fitting it is there. Doesn't it just fit round your neck and clip to your crash hat?

[Al Weyman]

No you have to alter the belt angle which can can entail modifications to the roll cage or would in my case and probably require a seat change as well so conciderable expense.

[Tim Falce]

It's impossible for me to alter my belt angle, they fit over my shoulders and do up round my waste much the same as most harnesses. It sounds like you may have a dodgy setup as there are instructions on the angle the belt has to follow when you buy them.