[FIA GT] Why is FIA sportscars so sad?

[billnchristy]

For all the European fans out there:

If LM racing is so big and racing in general so big in Europe, then why did the FIA Sportscars fail so miserably?

I watched last year on Speed and will this year too and I could probably count the fans at each race on my hands and toes.

What gives? Is it the format, the rules...what is it that makes it unattractive?

Will LMES succeed and what makes it different?

These arent synical questions, real honest answers would be very appreciated as I cannot understand how the very types of cars that are drooled over at LM every year dont draw any crowds anywhere else.

Thanks

[Fish_Flake]

Easy. In the FIA's eyes, Formula 1 is the only series that matters, so they have set ridiculous restrictions on cost and other regulations to keep major manufacturers away from starting a prototype program and focused on spending its money in F1. As a result, the FIA Sportscar Championship since its re-inception after the end of Group C has been limited to small privateer outfits running cars with customer chassis and engines from specialty firms like Judd and Zytek. The ALMS and the new LMES, in contrast, is governed by the ACO and has no such restrictions on manufacturer involvement.
In the end, sports car racing is dependent on factory support from the traditional forces in the sport, such as Porsche and Jaguar. That's why the ALMS has been able to sustain some success through the remarkable success of the name-brand Audi R8, while the FIA-SCC can barely survive with the similar dominance of the Racing For Holland Dome-Judd.

[jj2728]

i just finished watching round 1 from estoril and thought that it was one of the more exciting races i'd seen in some time....the weather was atrocious, the passing was great, and i love the pescaralo courages!...yet, the field was terribly small, and the fans almost seemed non-existant....i think it's a great series and wonder myself what it will take for it to succeed....

[jhansen]

I also just watched Round 1 from Estoril. Great race considering the small field and wet conditions! Too bad only a handful were there to witness it in person. I have the same questions as billnchristy though. How did sportscar racing ever flourish on that side of the pond? Is it stronger in other countries such as the UK, Germany and Italy? How do all of these series co-exist in such a small area? You have ETCC, BTCC, FIA GT, British GT, DTM and FIA Sportscar Champship (next year LMES). And I'm sure there are even more series than what I've listed. Seems like over saturation.

I've heard the response that Fish_Flake offered. Seems the FIA is one corrupt bunch. Didn't they also ruin Group C?

[Fish_Flake]

Let's see. Mercedes-Benz decides to enter big-time racing after over thirty years of the FIA practically begging them to return. Rather than supplying engines to a Formula 1 team, they decide to enter the World Sportscar Championship. As soon as the results begin to show, Group C is cancelled, leaving Mercedes nowhere else to go but Formula 1. Coincidence? I'd like to think not. In reality, prototype sports car racing is the truest test of automotive technology, and not that ridiculous open-wheel stuff the FIA tries to pass off as.

But you guys are right about the glut of series in Europe. However, it's understandable whenever you consider that Europe is a continent with many nations having their own domestic championships to go along with the overall international championships, unlike the U.S., where the domestic and international championships are all within themselves, as we just count the hundred miles where most Canadians live as our own, anyway. (In a sporting sense, of course.) On the other hand, the specs for most of the major touring car and GT championships are alike anyway, with the international championships being merely a slight step up from the domestic championships. And the DTM is just something the German manufacturers do for bragging rights over whose the best that is ultimately irrevelant to the rest of the racing world. (Just like the German manufacturers themselves...)

[Hazza]

Then again - Group C was like Cheap F1 with its massive fields of cars, if that happened again, F1'd be Kaput!

[Patrick B]

Every time i watch F1 i squint... trying to make them look like sportscar's.

Hopefully someday Sportscars will take back thier rightfull spot at the top of the MotorSports world. It might happen with the ACO now running the Euro prototype series verses FIA... maybe... I hope...

[Fish_Flake]

Originally posted by Hazza
Then again - Group C was like Cheap F1 with its massive fields of cars, if that happened again, F1'd be Kaput!

And that's what the FIA doesn't want you to know: Formula 1 is completely irrelevant! Compare Formula 1 to a properly established World Sportscar Championship. One says to the manufacturers, "Gather your best engineers and build a supercar to race in the championship. It will race in a series of contests of different lengths and conditions testing every single element of the car's design, all culminating in the ultimate test in automobile strength and endurance, the 24 Hours of Le Mans!" On the other hand, the other series says, "The cars in this series have no application in real life. We don't need any help with the chassis; we just want you to build an engine that will produce a lot of power, then blow up after two hours. Every race is basically the same; the circuits are all basically the same, the races all run the same distance. Oh, and you will be overshadowed by the people driving the cars." If you were the head of a carmaker, what series would you choose?

FIA Sportscars are basically Formula 3000 cars with enclosed wheels and bigger engines. End of story.

[Cadete]

one of the problems with FIA Sportscars is the lack of knowledge about it. i live 15 minutes by car away from Estoril and I only knew that the championship had been here a good deal of time later!

of course that was at the start of the year when I wasn't into sportscar much (only started following those and GTs from mid Summer) but there wasn't anything, not an advert on the television or a bit poster on the streets....

and FIA GT was barely better, at least that received a bit of coverage on the local magazines and I knew about it...

[billnchristy]

It isnt much better here in the US. If you dont follow the series you wont know about it...

Luckily there are some really good magazines now that cover Sportscars and the like so that helps.

Ive never really been able to understand the draw of F1 either. The only reason the sports cars dont have some of the systems an F1 car has is because its not allowed, and of course they dont have the power because they need to last.

Sportscars are much sexier beasts than F1 or any other openwheel cars...I used to not like the open tops, but there are some really nice ones out there now, not just the chopped top GT1s that started em out (for the recent crop).

I really do hope LMES works but why did ELMS fail? I wasnt really into the scene then, I just knew they went by the wayside.

ALMS also said a while back (for 01 season) that there would be no more sprints, all races would be 4,6 and 8 hours plus the 10hr petit and sebring.

I like the idea, but its not very marketable, there is no way NBC and CBS would show such races, you cant even get the full 2.75 hr races, you get 2 so imagine what **** you would get with all enduros.

I have always liked the racing in the FIA SCC, always wondered why they didnt combine with GTs though...

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by billnchristy
I have always liked the racing in the FIA SCC, always wondered why they didnt combine with GTs though...

the ideawas to have grids big enough to sustain separate series. With FIA GT, it worked. With FIASCC, it only worked for a season or two. Also, neitehr the FIA GT nur FIASCC managements wanted a merger. The series weren't/aren't run by the FIA itself, it just provides the rulebook and sanctions them as "FIA series". It would not have made any sense whatsoever for FIA GT to merge with FIASCC. Ratel sees the GTs as his product, nothing else.

ALMS and GA are mixed series, FIA GT isn't, and FIASCC wasn't.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Fish_Flake
Compare Formula 1 to a properly established World Sportscar Championship.

Which doesn't exist.

Compare NASCAR to a proper North American Road Racing Championship. which doesn't exist.

FIA Sportscars are basically Formula 3000 cars with enclosed wheels and bigger engines. End of story.

There is no such thing as an FIA sportscar. There are Le Mans Prototypes. They are the most beautiful racecars ever built. Anyone who thinks prototypes with a roof (or worse, a bulbous roof) look better than the current LMP900s obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.

End of story.

[Nordic]

I quite like prototypes with roofs, the old grp C Lancia's etc always looked good to me.

[EliseGT1]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Which doesn't exist.

Compare NASCAR to a proper North American Road Racing Championship. which doesn't exist.


There is no such thing as an FIA sportscar. There are Le Mans Prototypes. They are the most beautiful racecars ever built. Anyone who thinks prototypes with a roof (or worse, a bulbous roof) look better than the current LMP900s obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.

End of story.

I'm sure everyone can tell for themselves what they like or don't like. So you can't make the statemant that people who like closed prototypes, don't know what they're talking about. I like all prototypes, as well as GT's.

Why is F1 so popular and Sportscars not? Well:

Why does my favorite tv-movie have to be cancelled during an important football match? Why isn't it cancelled during the semi finals of basketball or icehockey? Why is tennis more important than volleyball?

Well: it's all about exposure. Marketing strategies, advertisements, sponsorships....Something (I don't know what) has made football (soccer) interesting for sponsors to reach their customers. So has F1...it's some kind of a chicken/egg problem. If some national TV channel puts FIA GT on screen every few weeks (and that will happen in Holland, because RTL has lost F1 rights to SBS), more people will visit FIA GT races (are we happy about that?). When more people visit a race, this will attract more sponsors. Those sponsors will spend more money on the teams, the races will become more attractive and again (you can guess by now) more visitors, sponsors and new teams will be the result.

And when someone says this form of racing isn't popular: please take a look how many people walk around soaking wet at midnight at the Spa 24 hours, and how many people there were durng the Le Mans 1000kms. Okay, the Spa 1000kms race was a bit quieter...

[EliseGT1]

I've said this thing before:

Let's hope that GT/Sportscars doesn't become nearly as popular as F1.....because that will be the end of attractiveness for me. Paying 250 bucks for a ticket you already have to order a year in advance.....duh ! Standing at a grass field 500 meters away from the track behind 4 fences of 3 meters high. Never being able to visit the boxes the evening before the race. Never being able to talk to a driver or teamboss again. :-(

[kdr]

f1 = motorsport for the mtv generation.

[FIRE]

...it's some kind of a chicken/egg problem. If some national TV channel puts FIA GT on screen every few weeks (and that will happen in Holland, because RTL has lost F1 rights to SBS),...

Will RTL5 cover FIA GT?

Forget FIA SCC, LMES forever!!!

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by EliseGT1
I'm sure everyone can tell for themselves what they like or don't like.

So am I. And I, like you, don't like to be told what to like.

So you can't

Yes I can. It's, like, "end of story", see.
And for all those among us who still haven't noticed, the FIASCC doesn't exist anymore.

[dretceterini]

There has been a major conflict of interest for years. To a large degree, the organization making international racing rules and promoting races is one and the same...have you ever seen the FIA promote sportscar racing?

International sportscar racing is surviving, but is NOT prospering. Even with the new series connected to LeMans sportscar racing won't grow UNLESS car makers become involved.

In the US, until Mr.Panoz, the ACO and the FIA get together and do what is needed to create a true world championship which means something to car makers, sportscar racing will continue to be rather meaningless to all but we fans.

Right now it's nA$$**** that means something to car makers in the US...NOT sportscars...what the fans care about is generally meaningless in the overall scheme of things.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
It would not have made any sense whatsoever for FIA GT to merge with FIASCC. Ratel sees the GTs as his product, nothing else.

ALMS and GA are mixed series, FIA GT isn't, and FIASCC wasn't.

I agree, although I do think that the FIA GT and FIA SCC grids should merge for the Spa 24hrs, the Spa 24hrs has a maximum entry of 65 cars, FIA GT averages around 34 cars and FIA SCC averages around 22 cars, that would still leave 9 empty slots for cars from series such as the ALMS, British GT, Spanish GT, FFSA, Italian GT, Euro GT, Belcar etc.

Having said all that I think it has been for the best that the FIA SCC and FIA GT remain seperate. This was Ratel's plan all along, get the FIA GT's strong enough to carry on as they are whilst a depleted FIA SCC fails - then ceate a new ELMS, the FIA SCC entrants will join the LMES (LMP 1 anyway) and he knew a few teams from FIA GT would compete in both series, as well as teams from FFSA, British GT etc, therefore he would have 2 very strong championships coinsiding with one another. In theory.

Ratel is creating a perfect ladder system for International sportscar racing, all series adopting the same regulations and the National series therefore feeding into the LMES and FIA GT series whilst still remaining strong national championships, but of course some of the teams in the National Championships will just be happy to stay where they are on the whole with perhaps the odd International event, Bathurst, Spa 24hrs or Spa 1000km, but others like Eurotech, Emka and TMC and Lister have shown want to move on to the International stage.

Things are very differnt now compared to 2001 - the LMES will thrive, as will FIA GT's. The ELMS failed for a number of reasons, but a big factor I think was that the FIA SCC was still fairly healthy at the time. This time around there is no FIA SCC. If u remember the GTS and GT fields of the ELMS werent that bad, particulary the GT grid, normally 3 or 4 cars in GTS and if I remember rightly about 10 in GT, the situation is better now for GT's, and theres no FIA SCC so the LMP grids should be strong this time around.

[sauber c9]

The FIA and more specifically, Bernie Ecclestone are the ones responsible for the demise of group C. I remember watching the 1990 Mexican Gp and in the preview bernie was discussing gruop C and scoffing at it saying that it was a manufacturer based series whose stability was in peril. Well, 13 years later, formula 1 in its current state(ie manufacturer based) resembles group C 0f the late 80`s doesn`t it?

[gfm]

Billnchristie poses a difficult question, and perhaps for the answers, one must look well outside of sports car racing.
Is it not the fact that outside one or two big sports car events, sports car series have not had successful series since perhaps the FIA/BPR few years? And let’s not fall into the trap of looking back with rose-tinted specs. Some of the sports car series in the 80s and 90s had bloody thin grids outside those few blue-ribbon races.
Motor racing will always be a victim of it’s own technical progress. So that, if you don’t have the latest tyre technology, and the geometries to use them etc., you ain’t going nowhere. Worse, there’s only ever one winner. Everyone else is … a loser, forgotten, even more irrelevant. So if you’re going to invest big money, there will only ever be one time when you can pull all the aces together and hit the jackpot. Like Audi or Porsche before them.
So that leaves the door open for … the rich sportsmen (which is why GTs are more the way to go) who aren’t really in it for the bigger commercial picture.
The second big idea which perhaps spoils the public appreciation right now is frankly, prospective fans are overloaded with better stuff to DO, rather than go and watch something which has simply no relevancy to them at all. Like track days, internet stuff and a variety of social allsorts. Maybe Le Mans wouldn’t be the success it was if half of it wasn’t a chance to be and misbehave in France and see if we can stuff ‘em on the circuit too; something that maybe missed on you the other side of the Atlantic.
Yes, there are plenty of political reasons why sports cars per se weren’t allowed or won’t be allowed to flourish as well; I don’t disagree. I’ve been on the receiving end of so much FIA rubbish and they know which side their bread’s buttered. But hardly any of this is relevant any more, and if it is, if it’s done on a local basis, then you up your chances of being a winner – small pond, big fish – and if it has production class roots but aspirational brand tags, - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini – then his mates knows what he’s bragging about, then there’s some hope.
Something along these lines …

[Fieldgate]

Hmmmmm, is this Ratel's bete noir ?

1) there aren't that many sportscars willing to meet the criteria (unless you include Radicals) it's just too esoteric.
2) If they'd matched with the FIA-GT championship (a la ALMS) they would have had a huge hit.
3) Expense & promotion ( see 2 above )

The fabulous thing about the LMES, is that there will be 1 consolidated set of rules (FIA-GT what will happen to you ?) and the best form of racing (NGT, GT, LMP).

There will be no FIASCC in 2004; which probably says everything that needs to be said.

[jhansen]

I think combining FIA GT and Sportscars would have been the way to go. But I think LMES will be better.

Side question. Do British GT and FIA GT follow ACO rules?

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by jhansen


Side question. Do British GT and FIA GT follow ACO rules?

As of 2004 and beyond, yes to the letter, only slight differnce is that British GT has a cup class where as the LMES and FIA GT series dont. But the technical and sporting regulations are the same for GT/NGT in both LMES, FIA GT and British GT.