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27 Jul 2020, 14:13 (Ref:3991048) | #201 | ||
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27 Jul 2020, 20:41 (Ref:3991126) | #202 | |
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Sometimes you have to have leeway. After all, they do allow tolerance on movement, so it’s not like they ignored the rules
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27 Jul 2020, 23:32 (Ref:3991152) | #203 | ||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
28 Jul 2020, 00:50 (Ref:3991156) | #204 | ||
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P.S. At no time was Bottas stopped after he began rolling, he did not gain an advantage, but he did not stop. What advantage did Kimi gain when he lined up on the wrong grid spot at the back of the grid? Started slightly further back than he should have, still subject to a penalty though. Anyway Last edited by wnut; 28 Jul 2020 at 01:08. |
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28 Jul 2020, 13:36 (Ref:3991239) | #205 | ||
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Good question from Sizzle, I don't know what the answer is, anybody? |
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28 Jul 2020, 13:48 (Ref:3991244) | #206 | ||
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As I understand it, the ECU regulates the power delivery to ensure that it matches (as much as possible) the pre-engagement of shift changes. Characteristics of the gearbox and PU change as a result of environmental and other factors, and the ECU is continuously remapping (for want of a better phrase). The pre-race synch ensures the ECU and gearbox characteristics are aligned.
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28 Jul 2020, 22:52 (Ref:3991321) | #207 | ||
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29 Jul 2020, 03:03 (Ref:3991330) | #208 | ||
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So not really driving the car unaided then?
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29 Jul 2020, 05:06 (Ref:3991331) | #209 | ||
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True, but I wouldn't call an ECU a driver aid.
An explanation of the process can be found here - http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/seamless_gearbox.html 'To achieve a seamless gearchange we essentially engage two gears at once by moving separate barrels and rely on the fact that it takes a finite time, just a few milliseconds, before both gears would actually engage and lock the gearbox with disastrous results. In this very short period we have to disengage the previous drive gear to ensure such catastrophe. It sound complex, and indeed, it is. It fundamentally depend on knowing the precise position of the dogs in the shaft. Bear in mind that modern seamless gearbox can shift in 2 - 3 milliseconds. This is complicated with the facts that barrel shaft is not only turning in many RPM-s, but is also flexing. It is the process of sensing and recording positions of each gear in the ECU that is known as "learning" the gears.' |
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29 Jul 2020, 08:57 (Ref:3991341) | #210 | |
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The ECU was introduced to keep driver aids out, although I wonder how many teams have got around it? Would be surprised if there were many
Good find there. Have to say paddle shift gearboxes are about the only original driver aid left, although Mercedes' DAS could be interpreted as one. To me that's fine, at least we don't have fully automatic gearboxes, although we need to make sure it doesn't get silly with driver aids again. Just focus on other areas to keep costs down too, rather than just one area |
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29 Jul 2020, 14:15 (Ref:3991395) | #211 | ||
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In their own article on the ECU, McLaren site the difficulty in policing the ban on traction and launch control, as well as unsustainable costs being the reasons for the ECU.
https://www.mclaren.com/applied/case...formula-1-ecu/ |
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29 Jul 2020, 16:53 (Ref:3991430) | #212 | |||
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My perspective is that the standard ECU was to primarily address the difficulty of policing a multitude of proprietary solutions (cost was likely another reason). Proprietary solutions makes it easy to hide things. Either directly or by the fact that those inspecting the system will not be experts in how it works and could easily miss the offending bits. With the standard solution, I believe teams are supposed to submit copies of the software and the reasons for that would be for later analysis if needed. Everyone is using a standard platform, so it makes it easier to inspect. However, as anyone who has written software can attest, looking at code written by someone else and trying to determine "intent" can sometimes be difficult. Especially if the author is actively trying to be evasive! Anyone in F1 who is doing questionable operations within the ECU is unlikely to have code that is obviously illegal. Nobody is writing a function called "traction control". What is more likely is that you will have code that clearly does X, but has a side effect of also doing (or impacting) Y. X is legal, Y is illegal. Even then, if you suspect that Y is happening, it may be difficult to tie the actions of Y back to the code that does X. And if it is doing Y well, you may not see Y in the data. But in the end, if someone is doing something nefarious, then the FIA has the ability to expose it. It would just take work (which speaks to the points made in the article about difficulty of policing) and they probably would have a specific target (i.e. traction control) that they would need to try to ferret out. I think this has an effect to keeping teams from doing anything that might be blatant. The recent speculation about how Ferrari may have been introducing extra fuel flow that the flow sensor didn't see. If that accusation were true, I expect the code that controlled the system appeared to be relatively innocuous, but the "potential" for undetected flow changes appearing as an unintended (or intended ) side effect. And when you are able to fool the sensors that also feed the data log, there is no data to prove that it happened. You are just left with suspicion. Richard |
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29 Jul 2020, 17:36 (Ref:3991454) | #213 | ||
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McLaren have a detailed page dedicated to the TAG-320.
https://www.mclaren.com/applied/prod...-unit-tag-320/ |
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29 Jul 2020, 23:26 (Ref:3991527) | #214 | |
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I would guess you could build a lot of traction control and other features in a drive by wire system under the guise of complying with the maximum fuel flow and fuel economy regulations.
Pretty sure the accelerators would be a torque mapped control too, so the percentage depression of the pedal is the percentage torque required from the engine, and you would further map this for each gear. That would immediately be crude traction control. You could also control the rate the engine spools up to "protect it from damage", again traction control. Last edited by wnut; 29 Jul 2020 at 23:37. |
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29 Jul 2020, 23:46 (Ref:3991529) | #215 | ||
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Well Ferrari aren’t very good at that as Vettel keeps spinning coming out of corners
I would say that what you are describing is more akin to improving the drivability of the engine than traction control. Traction control in the sense of driver aid requires some feedback loop. |
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30 Jul 2020, 00:50 (Ref:3991532) | #216 | |||
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But in the end, yeah, playing around with how the engine mappings work can help the driver in specific conditions. Richard |
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30 Jul 2020, 06:44 (Ref:3991551) | #217 | ||
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Despite all the above about the ECU, it has to be borne in mind that the FIA does have constant access to the data of settings on every single ECU whether in the pits or on the track.
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30 Jul 2020, 08:51 (Ref:3991576) | #218 | ||
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30 Jul 2020, 10:19 (Ref:3991600) | #219 | ||
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Richard |
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30 Jul 2020, 10:32 (Ref:3991611) | #220 | ||
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Being a torque control (as opposed to an rpm, or fuel flow control) is probably vital when it comes to seamless gearboxes.
When the driver shifts up, he is not releasing the throttle, but the rpm will have to drop to match the next gear. Being monotonic means that the torque can plateau to achieve the requirement for being in two gears at the same time. |
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30 Jul 2020, 10:43 (Ref:3991615) | #221 | ||
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So essentially that particular piece of gobbledygook means nothing at all as far as setting up a throttle or more correctly torque control pedal is concerned. Can't see why you would want the torque to decrease as you push the pedal, could get a bit strange when the engine goes beyond its powerband and the torque curve drops off though! |
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30 Jul 2020, 10:51 (Ref:3991619) | #222 | ||
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30 Jul 2020, 10:58 (Ref:3991620) | #223 | ||
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A lot has been written about the engine torque map, inverse engine torque map, driver demand torque map, pedal map and ignition map here:
'So, with the generic term “Engine Maps” we refer to a wide set of one-dimension or two-dimension parameter tables loaded into the ECU to control all the engine parameters, that are, at least, throttle opening, injection and ignition timings (duration, phase, etc...). All maps are filled with proper data during hours of engine calibration done at the test rig and/or at track. The torque demand, as requested from the driver by the acceleration pedal, is calculated by the chain composed by the Pedal Map and the Torque Demand Map. The input variable is the accelerator pedal position, given by the drive by wire potentiometer and the output variable will be the throttle position, actuated from the ECU by hydraulic or electric actuators on the engine intake butterflies or barrels.' |
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30 Jul 2020, 13:04 (Ref:3991650) | #224 | ||
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I see there is this despite all the controls "It’s not traction control as it isn’t controlling to a wheel slip target, but instead an open-loop method to try and help wheelspin control. It can be of real benefit when the tires are worn out.” and considerable work on the engine overrun. |
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