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Old 4 Feb 2008, 21:18 (Ref:2121059)   #1
gavkiwi
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Question about Brock & Bathurst 1988?

G'day, This is bothering me and I am wanting an answer to this.

In 1988 Peter Brock drove Mobil BMW M3's, Looking at www.autopics.com.au, it shows during the ATCC season of '88 that Brockie was driving his famous '05'.

BUT, in the 1988 Toohey's 1000, he is not in '05', but in #56, and the sister car is #57. Can somone please give me the definitive answer to this, b/c it's bugging the crap outta me lol

Also, its a long shot, but I have done countless google & yahoo image searches of his 1988 BMW, if anyone has any good large pics of Brockies 1988 Bimmer, in either '05' or '56' guise, post em PLEASE

cheers
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Old 4 Feb 2008, 22:07 (Ref:2121110)   #2
F J Nedos
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I seem to recall around those years, that Bathurst was part of an international touring car championship. You'd probably find that '05' was either referring to a number 5 who was already registered for that international championship. Or possibly the international rules didnt allow for the '0'.

I also seem to recall the different classes at bathurst. The main level cars (V8's turbo sierras etc) had low-ish numbers. The Second grade cars (like the naturally aspirated bimmers and smaller beasts) all started from 50 onwards. Maybe that was it.
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Old 4 Feb 2008, 22:11 (Ref:2121112)   #3
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Yep, it's the class number system from memory. For the 'Asia Pacific Championship' which Bathurst was a part of that year, you could not run a car from the class the BMW was in with a number <50.

Hence Brock running 56 and gthe 2nd car running #57
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second".

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Old 4 Feb 2008, 22:26 (Ref:2121131)   #4
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Cool, thanks for the info
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 00:06 (Ref:2121218)   #5
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Just a little side track, the 1988 Tooheys 1000 was the only Bathurst to have a rolling start.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 02:29 (Ref:2121268)   #6
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bestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Remember the early days when they started cold with no warm up lap?
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 03:25 (Ref:2121289)   #7
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db120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddb120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think it was an FIA regulation that the numbers had to be divided by classes, the M3 having to take a number over 50. More proof, besides the 1987 Bathurst, that the whole Group A era was a disaster for fans.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 03:35 (Ref:2121293)   #8
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Why was it a disaster for fans??

Bathurst had had class based numbering systems for many many years previously. Even in the Group C days the over 3-Litre class had the lower numbers, the 2-3 litre class had the next lot of numbers etc etc... the numbering rules were not different for Bathurst 1988, it was just that no one with a 'famous' number had had to change prior to Bathurst 1988.....

Probably the first year Bathurst numbers weren't based around classes would have been 1992.

Last edited by racer69; 5 Feb 2008 at 03:39.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 04:21 (Ref:2121302)   #9
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Originally Posted by racer69
Why was it a disaster for fans??

Bathurst had had class based numbering systems for many many years previously. Even in the Group C days the over 3-Litre class had the lower numbers, the 2-3 litre class had the next lot of numbers etc etc... the numbering rules were not different for Bathurst 1988, it was just that no one with a 'famous' number had had to change prior to Bathurst 1988.....

Probably the first year Bathurst numbers weren't based around classes would have been 1992.
1986 is one example of a year they didn't change numbers based on class.

The Group A comment wasn't so much a comment on the numbering system, but on the move from Group C and giving the FIA too much influence around our leading motor race
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 04:31 (Ref:2121306)   #10
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Group C had little or no future beyond 1984, the only manufacturers with any real committment beyond then were Holden & Nissan. Group A was the only way forward.


1986 seems to be an anomally (which i'll admit i overlooked), as the Martin's Mercedes ran #14 & Colin Bond's Alfa ran #75, but there were other number changes in the field to fall into line with 'class numbers' in 1986. In 1985 for example Robbie Francevic changed from his #21 in the ATCC to #55 for the enduro's, due to his class. Same with Colin Bond that same year, having run #26 in the ATCC, he had to run #47 at Bathurst.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 04:52 (Ref:2121311)   #11
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Anyone remember if Brock briefly ran 08 before 05 became the new blood alcohol limit? --perhaps some may not know this was why he ran 05.
When I go to my old esky I see a sticker of Brock's BMW from 1988 to remind me.....of something ???
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 05:04 (Ref:2121316)   #12
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05

Brocky was the beneficiary of 05 - the architect was a Don Gibb. Know Don was at Le Mans in the BMW 3.0CSL days, maybe someone can fill in the details around 05.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 05:16 (Ref:2121318)   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR
Just a little side track, the 1988 Tooheys 1000 was the only Bathurst to have a rolling start.
wasn't that 87?
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 05:36 (Ref:2121321)   #14
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by fordlover
wasn't that 87?
No. In 1987 Bathurst got a special dispensation to have a standing start, every other round of that years WTCC had a rolling start (the dispensation also allowed Hardies Heroes to count for the grid).

In 1988 when it was an Asia-Pacific Touring Car Championship round, neither dispensations were approved, meaning it had to be a rolling start, and the Top Ten didn't count for the grid (hence it became a Top 12 that year)
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 05:52 (Ref:2121323)   #15
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sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavvy
Brocky was the beneficiary of 05 - the architect was a Don Gibb. Know Don was at Le Mans in the BMW 3.0CSL days, maybe someone can fill in the details around 05.
I believe it started in 1975 when he ran the yellow Gown-Hindhaugh L34 torana and was related to the drink driving limits in Victoria and associated road safety campaign.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 06:08 (Ref:2121325)   #16
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PVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think sizzle is correct although he's has to revert to just plain 5 at several international events when 05 wasn't allowed (Bathurst is one example).
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 06:20 (Ref:2121326)   #17
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
From memory his first run as #05 was the 1975 Sandown 250.

He ran the 'plain #5' at Bathurst in 1975 & 1976, and ran #25 at Bathurst in 1977.

In 1987 he was allowed to run as #05 at the Bathurst and Calder WTCC rounds, but across the Tasman at the Wellington round he was only allowed to run #5.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 06:37 (Ref:2121329)   #18
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Wasn't it #5 at Spa in the VL as well?

Other interesting numbers games, Ray and Graham Gulson used LPs #11 on their 635CSi one year as they hat sponsorship from AT&T or someone and used the 0011 dial code as their gimmick. IIRC Larry used #10

Didn't HRT start using #1 for the enduro's the same year that CL won the championship too (prior to them being part of the championship).
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 07:19 (Ref:2121341)   #19
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Brock ran #5 on the VK in the four ETCC rounds he did in 1986 (Monza, Donnington, Hockenheim & Spa). In 1987 at the WTCC round at Spa he ran the Mobil VL with #3
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 07:27 (Ref:2121343)   #20
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db120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddb120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
.

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Old 5 Feb 2008, 07:31 (Ref:2121345)   #21
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db120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddb120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Wasn't it #5 at Spa in the VL as well?
5 at Spa on the VK in 1986, 3 on the VL in 1987

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Old 5 Feb 2008, 07:41 (Ref:2121350)   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdmdog
Other interesting numbers games, Ray and Graham Gulson used LPs #11 on their 635CSi one year as they hat sponsorship from AT&T or someone and used the 0011 dial code as their gimmick. IIRC Larry used #10
It was UTC, but you were spot on about all the other details. It was in 1988 when they didn't actually make the race.

There seem to have been more than a few tie-ins between sponsorship and racing numbers over the years. HRT (#015) and TKR (#021) for telecommunications companies; Brock and Terri Sawyer with #05 and Bryan Sala with #00 for TAC blood-alcohol limits; Tim Slako (#96) and Steve Masterton (#2) for radio stations.

But isn't this sort of thing prohibited in the CAMS NCRs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdmdog
Didn't HRT start using #1 for the enduro's the same year that CL won the championship too (prior to them being part of the championship).
Quite a few have done that over the years; Jim Richards in '85 and '90 (although for some reason he went back to #2 for the AGP meeting in 1990, then back to #1 for the Nissan 500 the next Saturday); Glenn Seton in 1997; Lowndes (as you mentioned) in 1998.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 10:23 (Ref:2121487)   #23
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Didn't HRT start using #1 for the enduro's the same year that CL won the championship too (prior to them being part of the championship).
Up until 96 the #1 plate had been carried by the winner of the previous year's championship for the whole year. The only exception I can recall was when Jim Richards started using the #1 at the 85 Sandown 500, although 84 winner Dick Johnson had elected not to use it, sticking to 17.

Starting from 96 until 99 when the championship was decided before the enduros, the policy changed and #1 would go to the new holder at the first race after the series, ie the Sandown or Ipswich 500.

At the end of 96 when 2 non championship races were held in New Zealand, Greg Murphy was allowed to keep the #1 plates that had been on the car for the enduros, even though it was Lowndes who had earnt them. Running #1 tied in nicely with series and team sponsor's Mobil 1 branding and in the eyes of the crowd I guess Murphy was #1... and he did win the series.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 13:15 (Ref:2121616)   #24
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I remember Brock running #5 at the AGP in 1987 too.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 15:40 (Ref:2121706)   #25
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
He did....though that may have had something to do with the 1987 AGP support race being a round of the South Pacific Touring Car Championship (no idea if that series was sanctioned by FISA though).....there were alot of mini-championships for Group A floating around at the end of the 1987, there had been a plan for an 'International Touring Car Championship' to run at the end of the year in this part of the world.....


Still interested to find out why Brock could run #05 at Bathurst and Calder, but couldn't at Wellington......i'll have to have a look at an RCN from that period, i vaguely recall the answer in there.

Now what would have happened if one of the 'registered' WTCC teams in 1987 had gone for #5. Would we have had uproar, as Brock wouldn't have been able to use it on a Holden? As it was the Moffat/Harvey car had run #5 in their limited WTCC appearances that year, but as they hadn't paid up and registered, they couldn't lay claim to things like numbers (nor trophies even )

Allan Grice also had a switch, running #3 at Wellington rather than his usual #2.
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