Jaques-the biggest hypocrit of the lot!!

[neutral]

Now that Jaques has joined the whingers bandwagon, I'd like to cast back your mind a couple of races to Montreal. In montreal Jaques done what was undoubtedly the most dangerous move of the season. In the wet slippery conditions, Jaques forgets that you need to brake for some corners, and rams Ralf straight off the track. Now imagine if shui had done the same to DC. Everyone would be calling for his suspension. OK everyone knows that Jaques is horrible in the wets, but pathetic driving is no excuse for dangerous moves on the track. Intention or no intention Jaques move was far more dangerous than anything done by shui at Magny Cours. Im not saying that Shui is an angel, but the last person that should be speaking against him is Jaques.

Note: Ralf didnt whine for the next few races after this incident. Maybe DC, Eddie, and Jaques should take a few tips from Ralf.

[Ralf's Girl]

I agree - at least Ralf has brains. I'm sick of all this whining. They're so babyish - DC is just upset because he can't beat TGF in a straight fight, and Eddie just wants to stir things. Villeneuve probably just doesn't like Michael (though I can't say I blame him). Perhaps if they spent less time moaning, F1 would be a more exciting sport.

Neutral - are you perhaps a Ralf fan? I thought I'd ask because you're very complimentary about him.

[Gt_R]

HA! Good Point! maybe DC and JV should just shut up now...and so do all their fans who whine together with their heros....Save the energy to "kao be kao bu" (chinese dialects) and use it to race......

[angst]

Oh dear, and still it rumbles on. DC beat TGF in that straight fight I recall. Can we try and get this into perspective. These 'cry baby whingers' are racing at speeds of up to 200mph, they are complaining almost as one body about the ONE driver they race against who they believe is a danger to the rest of the field. Give them some credit for God's sakes. As far as the braking move with JV and Ralf, I tink the point is absolutely and completely the intent. Most of the drivers would not knowingly do something that puts their competitors at risk, most of the drivers except for one - and that is the crux of the matter.

[Ralf's Girl]

The people who have started supporting DC this season are simply glory-grabbing (a bit like 90% of Manchester United fans). But what is the point of stirring up trouble. There's enough bitterness between TGF and DC, and both their teams, without DC and his little army of hair-dyers making it all worse.

[angst]

OUCH! - I am certainly no DC fan. I was just making the point that you can't accuse him of bashing TGF because he can't beat him, because he has. You have to ask why the other drivers complain about TGF - and not try and find excuses. He endangers his opponents deliberately, as an act of intimidation.
Please don't maention that M word again.Leeds are and always have been my team.

[Liz]

So you pick one occasion when Jacques made a stupid and dangerous move, and say that this excuses five seasons of stupid and dangerous moves by TGF?

Or is this perhaps Jacques saying, "Well, if he can get away with it, I can get away with it" and reaping the consequences that TGF is now reaping?

I agree with those who say that the people who are on the track know a lot more about what they are talking about than we who are in the stands or in front of the TV. Especially those of us who have never been in a race car at speed. It is simply childish to accuse the people whose lives are devoted to this sport and whose experience is vastly greater than ours, of being "crybabies" because they speak out against dangerous and stupid driving.

[Tristan]

Woahh! NOW I know why I've been avoiding this topic: can of worms!!

You are right, that JV move was abysmal BUT, I have to agree with what Liz says (believe it or not) You can't just make wild acusations, be it on JV or MS (far too many have been made towards him. Deliberatly trying to get the race stopped in Austria? Come off it!!)

AND DC fans are NOT glory hunters (even if he ISN'T THAT great a driver)

[Liz]

Right, Tristan, I like a good fair argument and thanks for providing one without getting into a slanging match!

As to "Glory Hunters" and bandwagon jumpers, some of us just have infinite faith in our pilotes despite their being mocked and jeered by othres (notice that fellow still referring to Rubens as "Dustbin"?) and when they come good, we are still with them all the way. This is not glory hunting. This is faith.

[Tristan]

The blood in my veins is red

PS Liz: nothing I EVER say is personal. CHUMS??

[Red]

Jacques? Of course he doesn’t change the line in a dangerous way. Especially at the start.

Now, who was driving that BAR? I mean that one that started from the left side, went across to the right, then back to the left? In a middle of cars that were departing? Oh, I got it, it was ethical. Or racing. Or Schumacher’s fault.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by Liz

As to "Glory Hunters" and bandwagon jumpers, some of us just have infinite faith in our pilotes despite their being mocked and jeered by others (notice that fellow still referring to Rubens as "Dustbin"?) and when they come good, we are still with them all the way. This is not glory hunting. This is faith.

I agree with that point. But the people who have become DC fans this season obviously just want to support the guy who wins. But yes, some fans have faith in their driver and will stick by him through good times and bad times - not revert to supporting the guy who may win the championship. So what if Ralf hasn't won a race yet? I know I'll still be supporting him when he does.

[Jay]

What are you guys talking about?

At the start of today's race Jacques was just trying to get around the cars infront of him. He got his usual great start and was faced with a ton of cars infront to pass. He tried, and didn't cause any crashes. What's the big deal? All of his passes today were clean. (Noting the one on Ralf)

Jacques made a dumb move in Montreal, and he apologized, and said it was all his fault. So how is he a hypocrit?

Since when has TGF ever apologized for anything? He seems to always blame anyone else who was near him.

Jacques and David are both good friends. And they have both had battles with Schumacher. So, if JV stands up for his friend I don't blame him.

[angst]

Exactly. If you make a good start of course you can move accross the track to try and gain positions. But if you make a poor start you shouldn't expect to be able to weave in front of your competitors (not just MS but ANYBODY!).
I'm trying to imagine MS apologising for something, but suspension of belief can only go so far...

[ttc]

Originally posted by angst
Exactly. If you make a good start of course you can move accross the track to try and gain positions. But if you make a poor start you shouldn't expect to be able to weave in front of your competitors (not just MS but ANYBODY!).
I'm trying to imagine MS apologising for something, but suspension of belief can only go so far...

How do you define a good start? Do you have to check your mirrors when you swerve so that you do not endanger the cars behind?

Point being, a lot of folks criticized MS for swerving at the start. Yet interestingly, up to THIS moment, I have yet to see one that singularly CRITICIZES DC for doing the exact same thing, TWICE. The first time, there wasn't any prob as MS sort of expected it... the 2nd one was the one that is, IMO, completely reckless as DC admits in the post race press conference that he DIDN'T know MS was behind him.

But yet all I have seen is gloating over MS coming together with Fissy and claiming that MS was to blame.

That is DOUBLE standards, something that many accuse the FIA of towards Ferrari and MS.

[Jay]

A good start being you have to move or brake to avoid hitting the cars infront of you on the starting grid.

Weren't we talking about TGF and Jacques?

[angst]

Precisely - a good start is one where you pull away from the people behind and are gaining on those in front.
I will say it again. I don't care if its MS or ANYBODY else, the weave across the field at the start (to protect you position) is a dangerous and stupid manouvre. DC is just as much of a prat as MS for doing it. But I don't see how you can defend TGF for doing this (as has been going on for the last...God knows) and now get hysterical when Scumacher has retired because DC does the same thing. It's **** when MS does it, and it's **** when DC does it.

[ttc]

Originally posted by angst
Precisely - a good start is one where you pull away from the people behind and are gaining on those in front.
I will say it again. I don't care if its MS or ANYBODY else, the weave across the field at the start (to protect you position) is a dangerous and stupid manouvre. DC is just as much of a prat as MS for doing it. But I don't see how you can defend TGF for doing this (as has been going on for the last...God knows) and now get hysterical when Scumacher has retired because DC does the same thing. It's **** when MS does it, and it's **** when DC does it.

Noticed that NO ONE says that DC was wrong. Not even I. But if DC is not at fault, when he makes 2 swerves, one more than TGF had earlier in the season, and because of his 2 swerves, "induced" an accident, then does it show that all the previous "whinnings" against TGF was just that, whinnings?

It's called racing, I believe.

Again, I'm trying to highlight to many here how it's TGF's fault when he makes a swerve, and when DC does it, nobody says a thing...

[Toth]

Totally correct ttc.

DC probably swerved because blablabla TGF did blablabla TGF's fault.

I missed Austria, have already forgotten about it. What I saw today was a beautifull race with a couple of weird incidents, and the one at the start was by no means the worst. Dump the handbags and let's have a party for Rubens for god's sake.

[Liz]

Rubens tomorrow morning: "Oh God, my head! What was I celebrating, again? I did? I won WHAT? PARTY!!!!!!!!!"

[Jay]

Didn't DC say that he was going to pull across on Schumacher before the race anyway?

Schumacher did it in Austria (and several times before) and got away with it. DC said that if those are the rules then he would take advantage of them.

All DC is doing is following the rules. TGF defined the rules, so DC is just following them too.

[Minardi fan]

I have supported DC this season because finally he's got off his backside and done some DRIVING.

JV: STOP MOANING!

[Roy2]

Okay, I've imagined Shui doing the same to DC, that is, making an ill-advised passing move on him at the slowest corner of the Montreal track. This is hard to imagine because Schumacher is so good in wet conditions. But the sequel is harder to imagine. JV, as Jay pointed out, at the eariest opportunity went straight up to Ralf, admitted it was his (JV's) fault, and apologized. Ralf didn't whine, as you put it, because the man did the honorable thing, and Ralf, being a sportsman, was satisfied.

As hard as it is to imagine MS crashing DC in the same way,it's harder to imagine MS taking full blame and apologizing for it. And Jacque's move was far from the most dangerous move of the season, because it was done at low speed. It was uncharacteristically dumb, cost Ralf his race, but wasn't that dangerous.

DC, JV, and EI see MS's starting tactics as dangerous and unethical. But these posters say that for them to speak out, and ask for a ruling on it, is whining and moaning. Well this is how it goes, first you speak, and then you act. Coulthard, who is showing more balls than Dick Tracy, having gotten "clarification" from Whiting, showed Schumacher how it's going to be from now on. As will JV when he gets a front line car.

[Liz]

Emphasis mine, but it's what I have been hearing from Secret Sources previously mentioned:

"AS LONG AS ZONTA STAYS BEHIND ME ... it doesn't bother me. TODAY HE WANTED TO BE A HERO BY OVERTAKING ME ... He's a nice guy BUT HE'S THE ONE LOOKING FOR A DRIVE NEXT YEAR AND HE'S DIGGING A HOLE FOR HIMSELF."

I make that, Jacques is afraid that if Zonta were allowed equal treatment both in equipment and handling, he would be faster than Jacques. Therefore Jacques is actively campaigning to keep Zonta behind him, and since Honda has told the team to stop favouring one pilot over the other, now it's time for Jacques to campaign to get rid of him.

Once again we see a fading champion frightened by a younger teammate. When Zonta is at Arrows next year you will see.

[Madfan]

Isn't it amazing how different eyes see the same thing SO differently.
I call Zonta, CRASH, because, to my eyes it's the one thing he does with any regularity. Most recently taking his own teammate out and possibly costing JV points.
Liz I think JV would like to see "CRASH" leave F1 and go race bumper cars!