Fuels / Be sanctioned--leaded or unleaded

[Pierre]

In historics, are we to use unleaded or leaded fuels. Do we look after the environment as we now do with road cars ? Formula one cars use unleaded fuels so why should't we ? Is there a technical reason why we should not?........Let us have some very informed debate on this subject........

[Peter Mallett]

I run unleaded in my car because that's all you can get unless you pay more for four star which is not easy to find in the UK these days.

As to whether it is environmentally friendly, I'm still not convinced. Whilst the possibility of lead poisoning may be a thing of the past, the increase in the incidence of asthma and other respitory complaints suggests to me that all these aromatics we are pumping into the atmosphere are in fact worse.

[simon drabble]

when the environment starts paying for my engine rebuilds I will use unleaded but until then I use Shell Optimax with Millers CVL. I know there was some discussion previously asto whether this is FIA legal, I have checked and it is.

[Peter Mallett]

I should add that I also use CVL but have had my heads converted to unleaded.

[Tainan]

I don't think motorsport will ever be environmentally friendly! The amount of fuel used in motor racing is totally insignificant, so I wouldn't worry about it. F1 should (and does) use unleaded to develop that type of fuel as opposed to nearly obsolete leaded. Perhaps they'll start using diesel too!

[zefarelly]

I use unleaded optimax and have had my head done, I also use Millers CVL, I have toi admit though that my engine is not tuned for economy

I think that race engines whilst not being very economical are usually in far better condition than most road cars, so despite fuel consumption theyre not belching oil out the back all the time fr example (although some do !!!)

[simon drabble]

apart from the racing diesal golf!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Tainan
I don't think motorsport will ever be environmentally friendly! The amount of fuel used in motor racing is totally insignificant, so I wouldn't worry about it. F1 should (and does) use unleaded to develop that type of fuel as opposed to nearly obsolete leaded. Perhaps they'll start using diesel too!

Do not confuse being obsolete with being illegal.

Leaded fuel is superior to unleaded fuel if for no reason other than reduced cost for equal performance.(and there are far more technical ones.)
Here in the US the lead replacement the companies used has now been banned in many places (MTBE)partly due to alleged "health reasons" and partly due to the ethanol lobby.
Of course it takes two gallons of oil to produce one gallon of ethanol but the farmers don't care because our tax money subsidizes them.

Your are absolutely right about the siginifcance of the amout of fuel used in all of motor racing.
It would not even register on the pollution scale.

[Tim Falce]

Lets not forget that unleaded is far more dangerous than leaded. It contains more benzines which are carcinogenics, and it burns far hotter than leaded and is a lot more difficult to extinguish. Super unleaded has or will be phased out as they are deemed too dangerous for public health. We seem to have swaped one hazard for a far worse one without much thought going into the outcome

[Pierre]

C.A.M.S. specificaly exclude any additives to fuels ,that includes ETHANOL and any other substances... You either use AVGAS 100 LEADED ????? or UNLEADED 98 from the roadside pumps... For some unexplained reason the FEDERAL EPA has given C.A.M .S. an exemption on this one for a lot of classes ,of which realy don't need this fuel... By the way ETHANOL is not recommended for road cars and is banned by most manufacturers..

[Matthew Ronke]

The aviation industry dictate the use of AVGAS in Australia. I can't see them changing to unleaded fuel very soon so I believe AVGAS will be around for sometime.

Using an unleaded fuel in a car without a catalytic converter pumps out toxins much more harmful than the lead content in AVGAS.

There seems to be two alternatives to AVGAS. the synthetic fuels that are produced by the likes of ELF which carry a price tag around $7.00 AUSD or using an ethanol blended unleaded, blended around 20% ethanol makes around 100 Octane fuel. prices wises similar possibily cheaper than AVGAS. There are certain categories in Australian motorsport using ethanol bleanded fuels as it is the only solotion to the engine troubles brought about by a switch from AVGAS. Ethanol blends are commonly used in the us for racing I believe.

I doubt very much that people with historical significant engines such as REPCO Brabhams would every run anything else than the intend fuel it was designed for. And I doubt they would even take the risk of running these engines on an unleaded fuel.

[Pierre]

let us have some realy informed fuel company engineers or tecnicians to adjudicate on this subject or even some person from the FEDERAL E.P.A. ..At the moment we are haveing & recieving un-informed comment& discusion on this subject....

[Morris 1100]

Originally posted by Pierre
..At the moment we are haveing & recieving un-informed comment& discusion on this subject....

Well what did you start the thread for if you didn't want un-informed comment & discusion.

[TimD]

I am inclined to agree with Morris on this. The very last thing I think we can expect is for a group of enthusiasts to just happen to have the petro-chemical qualifications to give definitive answers. Furthermore, specific talk of CAMS requirements can only be for purposes of example. Most of the posters here do not come under their auspices.

Let's stick to light-hearted discussion, that's all this forum is here for.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Matthew Ronke
The aviation industry dictate the use of AVGAS in Australia. I can't see them changing to unleaded fuel very soon so I believe AVGAS will be around for sometime.

Using an unleaded fuel in a car without a catalytic converter pumps out toxins much more harmful than the lead content in AVGAS.

There seems to be two alternatives to AVGAS. the synthetic fuels that are produced by the likes of ELF which carry a price tag around $7.00 AUSD or using an ethanol blended unleaded, blended around 20% ethanol makes around 100 Octane fuel. prices wises similar possibily cheaper than AVGAS. There are certain categories in Australian motorsport using ethanol bleanded fuels as it is the only solotion to the engine troubles brought about by a switch from AVGAS. Ethanol blends are commonly used in the us for racing I believe.

I doubt very much that people with historical significant engines such as REPCO Brabhams would every run anything else than the intend fuel it was designed for. And I doubt they would even take the risk of running these engines on an unleaded fuel.

Matt:
In aviation, as long as there are high-performance aircraft engines (ones that fly high and fast) there will be leaded fuel as the chance of an engine failure with unleaded fuel is too high.
Go to one of the aviation sites, and I think you will find a more official listing of the danger of eliminating unleaded.( In the US, at many airports one can drive in and refuel with Av-Gas, as I used to do with my Mustang. Also there is one gas station in my home town that alternates between selling Av-Gas or 110 octane race fuel during the summer months depending which is a better deal for the station, but you have to sign every time you use it, for some odd law.)

I know of no alcohol blends used in racing gas in the US. It causes enough problems that up here in Minnesota, where government interference is forcing the use of it, stations are allowed to have at least one pump without the alcohol as it is destructive to snowmobile, boat-motors, and other such two-stroke engines.
About ten years ago or so, Car&Driver had artricles quoting parts, if not all of official studies on the negative aspects of possible automotive fuels.(Read independant studeies as the Gov. ones were biased to suit there purpose.)
Ethanol blends are not the "clean" fuel the farm lobby says it is, actually there IS NO SUCH THING as a clean fuel.
I think, if you do a thorough search of the internet, one can still find the studies but I do not know what key words to use.(It is odd that the EPA is worried about sulphur content in Coal but does not worry about sulphur coming out of car tail-pipes due to converter use.)

The EPA are the bone-heads who first reccomended MTBE and now say they cannot use it. The EPA is run by the same type of people who run the NHTSA, the latter are the ones who forced air-bags on Detroit and when confronted with the 200 plus deaths due to airbags more or less said they saved more than they killed. Of course when before they were required they said if even one life was saved they showed there value.
I don't know but killing over 200 people seems a lot worse than saving one.
Bob

[PeterMorley]

Originally posted by Pierre
In historics, are we to use unleaded or leaded fuels. Do we look after the environment as we now do with road cars ? Formula one cars use unleaded fuels so why should't we ? Is there a technical reason why we should not?........Let us have some very informed debate on this subject........

The reason for the introduction of un-leaded fuels in roads cars has nothing to do with environmental pollution caused by the fuel itself.

Un-leaded fuel is necessary so that cars can run catalytic convertors, it is the catalyst that reduces the exhaust pollution (of course the catalyst itself, and un-leaded fuel, can add to environmental pollution, so the chosen solution creates a whole series of unknown effects).

Phasing out leaded fuel was a way of simplifying the introduction of catalytic convertors - however in best UK government tradition they failed to inform (most of) the public of the true reason (Americans understood this decades earlier when they adopted cats).

You also need to be running (electronic?) fuel injection to really benefit from a cat (the mixture should be regulated according to the readings from the exhaust sensors). A single stage cat can be fitted to any system but it is not very effective (this is what people fit in a German race series for older cars that insists on cats).

As to whether to race on un-leaded fuel that is another matter:
>Most race engines do low mileages between rebuilds so the increased valve seat recession is less of an issue;
>Many race engines have aluminium heads with hard valve seat inserts, these are far less prone to valve seat recession;
>Ignition & fuel settings tend to be better regulated on race engines, so they can be tuned to the particular fuel;
>If you are talking about pre-war cars then many of them ran on unleaded fuel originally anyway, so no problem there (plus any current fuel is of a far higher rating).

From a race point of view the quality of the fuel is more of an issue, in most cases super unleaded is the highest octane pump fuel available and would seem to be the best choice.

Adding a lead replacement can't be a bad idea since it should reduce wear and tear of the valves - but you must stick to the same type of additive, mixing them can have a detrimental effect apparently.

Octane booster sounds like a pretty good idea while you're at it, assuming it performs as advertised.

Or run Avgas (or the super expensive racing fuel they supply at Silverstone etc.) that has a high octane rating, lead - and will be no more polluting than anything else.

If you are bothered, why not protest about the fact that we all have to run and pay for catalytic convertors on our road cars, while aeroplanes are free to pump out far more pollution than cars (after power stations, aircraft are the biggest contributor - cars are some way down the list of polluters).

But don't ever think that running unleaded fuel (or diesel!)is environmentally friendly, it is true that cars with cats have reduced emissions (as some companies keep telling us, the air coming out can be cleaner than the air going in, but that just shows you the fallacy of only considering a couple of the elements present) but they have side effects - which are possibly far more harmful (we've only had a few years to measure them against decades for leaded fuel).

And if you are worried about your own lead levels, check your local water pipes, lead pipes have far more effect than leaded fuel.