Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27 Aug 2019, 13:20 (Ref:3924348)   #3631
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,159
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Will other countries follow suit?

Or will the FIA have to act?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...27-p52lbi.html
Philip Morris does own a "vaping"/e-cig products. I wonder if those brands could be run on cars and not fall under the tobacco ban.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 27 Aug 2019, 13:30 (Ref:3924352)   #3632
Peter Mallett
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
 
Peter Mallett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
England
Here and there
Posts: 33,092
Peter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FamePeter Mallett will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Didn't I read somewhere that a country is banning them? Not sure if they are as benign as people suggest. Remember Skoal Bandit, which was another alternative to smoking?

Yes E cigarettes are banned in Japan.
Peter Mallett is offline  
__________________
I was definitely NOT Kung Fu Fighting!
Quote
Old 27 Aug 2019, 14:26 (Ref:3924359)   #3633
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,159
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Not sure if they are as benign as people suggest.
Personally I can't stand them. I agree they are likely to be proven quite harmful.

I mostly was joking about Philips Morris running a vape brand. Because in the end, it's just them trying to work around the tobacco ban and given those can deliver nicotine, likely wouldn't be allowed IMHO.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 27 Aug 2019, 17:16 (Ref:3924382)   #3634
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,014
S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!S griffin has a real shot at the championship!
Well they would run their Mission Winnow branding, but pressure forced them to remove. Same with McLaren with A Better Tomorrow
S griffin is online now  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 27 Aug 2019, 17:48 (Ref:3924388)   #3635
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,383
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Will other countries follow suit?

Or will the FIA have to act?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...27-p52lbi.html
speaking about complaining that Ferrari kit is so terrible to look at.

between the logos and slogans its an assault on the senses! tacky to the extreme...someone needs to do Ferrari (and all of Italy) a favour and take Phillip Morris out of this equation.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 27 Aug 2019, 22:12 (Ref:3924428)   #3636
Mike Harte
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 3,231
Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
...someone needs to do Ferrari (and all of Italy) a favour and take Phillip Morris out of this equation.

As Phillip Morris are probably the biggest partner (i.e. sponsor) that Ferrari have, and have had for decades, I fear there is little chance of that.

Unlikely that they will want to deny themselves of the US$25 - 30 million or so that they get every year from Phillip Morris. This is why Ferrari could afford the huge salary demands of Schumacher, Alonso and now Vettel.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Aug 2019, 16:37 (Ref:3924521)   #3637
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,383
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
i got some time on my hands but not enough time to learn more about aerodynamics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
In fact the rear wing is necessary to help kick the wake from the underbody up higher in the air than would otherwise be possible. The size of the underbody tunnels are obviously constrained to what will fit around the suspension/gearbox/engine, and the need to not exceed a diffuser angle where stall occurs --- you can't just fit an increasingly enormous venturi tunnel under the car, it has limitations. So you can help that venturi tunnel out, by using the rear wing and beam wing to help "suck" air out from underneath the car; and this will help kick the wake from the floor as high up in the air as possible, and thus out of the way of the following car.
follow up questions to that.

looking at the cars from 2014-2016 era...2016 RB below.



just going by memory but thinking about those narrow but high wings (almost at level or higher than the air intake/airbox)....was this idea of kicking the wake up higher tried before or is this new approach significantly different?

also (and this my not make any sense), whenever i see a diagram of air flow they show those arrows being disturbed by the car and then at some further distance behind, the arrows settle back into their original position/level/direction and go back to normal.

so if the wake gets kicked up higher wont that disturbed air still settle back to it's normal level all be it having traveled a further distance (higher up and then down) and that path will take a bit longer so the disturbed air settles back to normal but now just further behind the lead car?

i guess my point is (and i literally have no idea what im talking about here), does this new solution just push the turbulent air problem a couple car lengths further back behind the lead car?

rather, the following car still has to pass through it but now they will have to pass through it earlier (ie while they are further back) which may possibly make it even harder to get close enough to enjoy the less disturbed air 'bubble' directly behind the lead car?

sorry if that makes no sense...i hate the black arts!

Last edited by chillibowl; 28 Aug 2019 at 16:43.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 28 Aug 2019, 16:41 (Ref:3924522)   #3638
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,383
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
As Phillip Morris are probably the biggest partner (i.e. sponsor) that Ferrari have, and have had for decades, I fear there is little chance of that.
i think PM pay much more then that but regardless of the amount, i agree i dont see Ferrari walking away from the money either.

ugly is here to stay!
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 29 Aug 2019, 01:53 (Ref:3924580)   #3639
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,707
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
just going by memory but thinking about those narrow but high wings (almost at level or higher than the air intake/airbox)....was this idea of kicking the wake up higher tried before
No, those cars had a very shallow diffuser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
does this new solution just push the turbulent air problem a couple car lengths further back behind the lead car?
No, that's not how it works. [Recall: air is neutrally buoyant unless it is cooled to make it sink .]
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Aug 2019, 14:55 (Ref:3924681)   #3640
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,383
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
No, that's not how it works. [Recall: air is neutrally buoyant unless it is cooled to make it sink .]
makes sense. thanks!
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 29 Aug 2019, 15:16 (Ref:3924687)   #3641
crmalcolm
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Ireland
Posts: 3,974
crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!crmalcolm is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
just going by memory but thinking about those narrow but high wings (almost at level or higher than the air intake/airbox)....was this idea of kicking the wake up higher tried before or is this new approach significantly different?
I think the approaches are different for the following reasons:

The 2009 'high/narrow' rear wing was introduced in an attempt to separate the flows from the diffuse and the wing. The overall aim at this time was to reduce the amount of down-force being generated.
Whilst the rear wing wake may have been higher, the wake from the diffuser remained and was relatively dirty.

This proposal has the wing working to draw the wake from the diffuser higher, giving a cleaner air immediately behind the car.

I have included a (very crude) illustration of how I interpret this. yellow is the 2009 airflow intent, and green is the new proposal.
Attached Thumbnails
87ferrarif602009f1.jpg  
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"It was really frustrating to stay behind slower cars, it ended up to be a fairly boring race for me."
"Wasn't fair! I brake for animals, Lewis doesn't"
Quote
Old 29 Aug 2019, 23:47 (Ref:3924758)   #3642
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,199
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
No, those cars had a very shallow diffuser.



No, that's not how it works. [Recall: air is neutrally buoyant unless it is cooled to make it sink .]
Thanks for your interesting posts V8.

Essentially Chilli is right though, the hole punched through the air by the car has gone from a VW combi sized hole to a pantechnicon sized hole.
The dirty air boiling off the rear wheels will converge into the lower pressure caused by lifting the air from the diffuser and wing. This will result in a lot of highly energetic turbulent air converging behind the car, air which is not "neutrally buoyant" but very turbulent and moving to fill a partial vacuum that is now bigger than before.
The wake of the current cars is significantly affecting a chasing car when it is 5 seconds behind. (400 meters at 300 kmh)

To my mind the aero group has failed to take proper advantage of ground effect aero which essentially uses the boundary effect against the track to more efficiently generate downforce, generates less turbulence and is more tolerant of turbulent air itself.
Instead the proposal sees the emphasis still placed on the front and rear wings of the cars, and the ground effect low pressure area being reduced by the reducing the area of the underfloor by reducing the wheel base of the cars.
I think Richard's original observation that politics and the "look" of the cars has hampered the effectiveness of the changes that have been made.

I guess there is no use arguing this out, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating! Roll on 2021.

The question remains though:

How will the cars be adjusted if the changes fail to improve the racing?

Will we have to wait another 10 years before anything is done?
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Aug 2019, 16:12 (Ref:3924854)   #3643
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 2,454
E.B should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridE.B should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridE.B should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridE.B should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
And it doesn’t need DRS to make it close
They do have 'push to pass' though
E.B is online now  
__________________
"The unfortunate thing about the changes coming in next year is that they are all restrictions" : Adrian Newey.
Junior Member - The Great Bauble's SOF Club. Member #4
Quote
Old 30 Aug 2019, 16:15 (Ref:3924855)   #3644
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 17,851
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.B View Post
They do have 'push to pass' though
Push to pass is limited.
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 17 Sep 2019, 08:19 (Ref:3928473)   #3645
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,199
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Whilst we are all enthusiastically waiting to see the rule change package for 2021, I was reminded on the Christian Sylt article from 2015 regarding "Just how Powerful is Ferrari's F1 Veto?".

https://autoweek.com/article/formula...-f1-veto-power
wnut is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Rules] Are more rule changes necessary ? Marbot Formula One 51 27 Sep 2009 17:19
F1 future rule changes TheNewBob Formula One 57 20 Dec 2006 08:19
Sensible ideas for future technical regs anyone?/Rule changes - more to come [merged] AMT Formula One 74 12 Nov 2002 15:09
Future Tourer Future Crash Test Australasian Touring Cars. 13 17 Jul 2002 23:01


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.