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Old 9 Sep 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3926941)   #2146
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They say, lies, damn lies and statistics....

Those are just numbers, they do not take into consideration as has been pointed out, single day, average across the three days, combined values. Or whether these are tickets sold, or actual bodies through the gate.

Also in comparing venues then you have to look at what is the capacity, Shanghai reduced it's capacity by covering off seats with large adverts from it's first events.
How can you give a figure for Monaco or Baku, when it's a city event with viewing from private apartments?
Is there local infrastructure issues which may impact on attendance year to year?

Numbers just aren't enough information.

Edit: crmalcolm posted whilst I was typing
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Old 9 Sep 2019, 17:24 (Ref:3926956)   #2147
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
The figures were released by the Managing Director of Commercial Operations at Formula 1 - and are the cumulative figures over the weekend.
They were compiled from the figures provided by the promoters of each event.

The Silverstone figures are consistent with what was being reported by the circuit back in 2011:

'Richard Phillips, managing director of Silverstone Circuits Limited: Friday's figure was a record at 88,000 [...] Saturday saw a record 105,000 [...] Sunday was also a record breaker with 122,000 in attendance.'

88k+105k+122k = 315,000 The circuit capacity is 155k



Other than anecdotally, is there anywhere that confirms the Japanese GP as being sold out in 2016 or 2017?
These images from 2016, whilst showing a healthy attendance, also show a lot of empty seats....

As SBF above says, you can do a lot with figures; furthermore, a lot has happened/changed since 2011.

Sometime after that date, spectator numbers were restricted by Silverstone/BRDC to the 90 thousands, and have only been increased to about 110,000 recently. And I can assure you, having last been to the whole weekend only 3 years ago, that there were nowhere near 88k or 105k on the Friday and Saturday. In fact, I would say that there were actually less spectators on both those days that you would get on the average Sunday of a BTCC meeting.

As for Japan, there may have been spaces in the grandstands, but the banking which extends pretty well all the way around the circuit and has stepped "seating" which is free to general admittance tickets, is always rammed to capacity with standing only at the top of the bank.
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Old 9 Sep 2019, 18:00 (Ref:3926963)   #2148
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
The figures I can find are for the 2016 and 2017 seasons.


Venue20172016Change
Canada360000300000+20%
Great Britain344500350000-1.5%
Mexico337043339967-1%
Australia296600271800+9%
Belgium265000233730+13.5%
Singapore260000219000+19%
USA258000269889-4.5%
Monaco2000002000000%
Hungary199000176000+13%
Abu Dhabi1950001950000%
Italy185000147500+25.5%
Spain177984165029+8%
Russia150000158000-5%
Austria14500085000+70.5%
China145000140000+3.5%
Brazil141218136410+3.5%
Japan137000145000-5.5%
Malaysia11060488828+24.5%
Bahrain9300092000+1%
Azerbaijan7154130000+138.5%

The table suggests that there is not a clear, direct correlation between history and attendance figures. It also shows that large attendance does not always provide a secure future.

Which goes back to my original point that history should not be important when it comes to deciding if a circuit should be on the calendar (IMO).

Have there been changes to the circuits at Brazil and Japan to explain the different attendance figures year-on-year?
Thanks for the stats but I don't think just two seasons is enough to go on. Attendance figures over a 10 year period, would give a better picture.

As for showing that a large attendance does not always provide a secure future, that doesn't appear to be the case, as non of those tracks with a large attendance has fallen off the calendar. Also, I don't think it's just about having a large attendance per se but a consistent and sustainable attendance. Therefore a track, any given year knows it can anticipate having a good sized crowd, which will bring in the money.
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Old 9 Sep 2019, 23:18 (Ref:3927014)   #2149
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I was at Suzuka last year and can confirm it was packed.
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Old 10 Sep 2019, 21:34 (Ref:3927244)   #2150
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Originally Posted by Purist View Post
And this reverence for storied venues is paralleled in how people view American football and baseball stadiums of historic significance. I imagine you get something similar in Europe with famous, long-standing "futbol" stadiums.

As for the "true fan" thing, I take it as a matter of the measure of a person's investment in the sport. Do you just casually pop in and out, or do you at least gradually, over time, try to become more involved and educate yourself about the sport? And obviously, a key part of that education will include the sport's history.

As to Adria specifically for the Italian GP, no, Monza's atmosphere can't be replicated there. The nature of the venue is far too different for that. Some of the crucial aspects of Monza are that it is a particularly high-speed circuit, with a relatively simple layout, and comparatively few corners. In addition, Monza surrounds and envelops you in a much more tangible way, with the grandstands and pits on the main straight, and the forest of the parkland around much of the rest of the circuit.

Adria is tight, slow, and doesn't have the sort of surroundings, but anyway, for starters, it's too short to be considered as a new F1 venue under the FIA regs; it's only 1.679 miles around, whereas Monza is 3.600. The minimum for F1 is 3.5 km (2.175 mi), but realistically, I don't see them picking any permanent circuit under 4.0 km (~2.5 mi), or any new-build circuit under 4.5 km (~2.8 mi).

So, what Italian venues would be closer to the mark? Well, in terms of length and nature of the lap, there's Enna-Pergusa. It has some of the forest, and with the lake, gives more of a park-like setting. The lap is 3.080 miles, and consists largely of flat-out blasts between chicanes. Now, given that it's shorter than Monza by half a mile, I'd look to consolidate Pineta and Proserpina into a single chicane ahead of that first little sweep before Curvone proper. After that, turn Zagaria into something more akin to Variente Ascari. New pits opposite the main stand would take care of that canyon feeling along the front straight.

Vallelunga is just long enough at 2.538 miles, and the first half of the lap is quite fast and flowing; the lap as a while is quite flowing in terms of corner shape except for Soratte. However, you don't really get the parkland surroundings there; the tree cover is rather sparse overall, even if the nearby hills are kind of nice. Also, the shorter lap coupled with Soratte and those two absurdly tight hairpins means the average lap speed won't be anything special. Furthermore, even with Curva Grande flat-out for F1, the place just isn't going to have that feel of being made up predominantly of long, high-speed runs. And this is all without considering the confines of that last sector and the pits/paddock.

Now to the last other venue to host an Italian round: Imola. Unfortunately, there's still too much chicanery here. The lap is 3.050 miles, again compared to Monza which is 3.600, and Imola still has three chicanes, down from four. However, while Monza just has the Lesmos and Parabolica as the other bits where you have to slow down, Imola has Tosa, Piratella, Acque Minerale, and Rivazza. If you were actually going to get it to a more Monza-esque state, take a look at the 1973 layout. Factor in that Acque Minerale and Rivazza are tighter/slower, but then also maybe swap in the 1995-06 Variente Bassa. And it can be said all a person likes that the chicane at Tamburello is there for good, but to fix the actual racing at Imola, especially for F1, it has to go. The road kinks to the left ahead of the chicane, which screws up an awful lot of any attempted overtakes there, because that kink makes your entry shallower and more acute basically by default. And as for the Monza parallel, it's like if you had a chicane at Curva Grande, which will never go over well.

Finally, there's Mugello. It's the next longest after Monza at 3.259 miles, compared to 3.600. Admittedly, it doesn't have the same flat-out blasts between chicanes thing going on, but average lap speeds should definitely be north of 150 mph, and the track has no really slow corners. The front stretch and section from San Lorenzo to Scarperia provide two quite lengthy, ultra-high-speed runs. And though Mugello doesn't have the forest right around, the hills kind of hem the place in, still providing a very pleasing, three-dimensional surround for the circuit. I think the Tifosi will go where F1 goes, especially with this also being a strong, established venue, to say nothing of the owners. And it's a track that provides a challenge while not having all the extra niggly little bits that so many of the newer circuits have that just seem to get in the way of overtaking.

So with Monza as the benchmark, if I had to rank these four tracks, just the circuits themselves, not really worrying about facilities or current run-off issues atm:
1. Mugello
2. Enna-Pergusa
3. Imola
4. Vallelunga

If I wasn't worrying so much about having a circuit with a nature nearer that of Monza:
1. Mugello
2. Vallelunga
3. Enna-Pergusa
4. Imola

I think Enna would put on a more exciting F1 race than Imola. And Misano has been changed too much exclusively for the bikes since 2006 for me to think it would be a good F1 candidate without basically undoing everything that was done to it.
Imola and Mugello are weighing up potential bids to host Formula 1 in the future for a second race in Italy.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/i...-prix/4538214/
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Old 12 Sep 2019, 09:40 (Ref:3927529)   #2151
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
Thanks for the stats but I don't think just two seasons is enough to go on. Attendance figures over a 10 year period, would give a better picture.

As for showing that a large attendance does not always provide a secure future, that doesn't appear to be the case, as non of those tracks with a large attendance has fallen off the calendar. Also, I don't think it's just about having a large attendance per se but a consistent and sustainable attendance. Therefore a track, any given year knows it can anticipate having a good sized crowd, which will bring in the money.

As far as I know the figures are for attendance across a four day "weekend", Thursday through Sunday and often include the attendance of a post race concert.
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Old 12 Sep 2019, 11:03 (Ref:3927537)   #2152
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You would need to quantify attendance by finding out how many actually pay to attend the event.
Many events give away huge amounts of free tickets to get people through the gate.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 00:22 (Ref:3927642)   #2153
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Good point. Events that are cheaper or free should get a higher rating. Like free to air coverage is a good thing for F1.
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Old Today, 06:53 (Ref:3929024)   #2154
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Just doing some quick checking on the listed circuit capacity, I think every one of those top 10 just about must be inflated, except, maybe, for Mexico.

The Russia figure is also definitely inflated, and I suspect the Azerbaijan one is somewhat artificial as well.

Italy, Brazil, and Japan seem like possible, if not probable, low-ball numbers. And I strongly think the listed capacity for the Red Bull Ring is inaccurate on the low side.

Aside from track capacity, you also have to, to an extent, consider the geographic and/or population size of the nation in question, as well as how many of its nearby neighbors have a GP.

One way to look at it is this. The European rounds, aside from Russia and Azerbaijan, all seem to draw rather well, and likely have a higher proportion of paid ticket sales than some of the other, much newer events. On the other hand, China doesn't even draw a full one-day audience, when looking at the circuit's theoretical capacity of 200,000, and this is in a country that is how large and how populated, near one of the most major and developed cities, and the only F1 race within how many thousands of miles on the Eurasian mainland.

I mean, shoot, Australia draws better, and it has fewer people in the entire country (also continent) than does the city of Shanghai on its own.

But anyway, changing gears here, I'll address another matter that Crmalcolm was harping on.

If I'm rating current/recent F1 circuits largely on how enjoyable I think the racing has been, this is roughly what I get:
1. Spa-Francorchamps
2. Interlagos
3. Red Bull Ring
4. Montreal
5. Melbourne
6. Suzuka
7. Monza
8. Baku
*(Somewhat optimistic estimate if Buriram were to join F1)*
9. Istanbul**
10. Sepang*
11. Singapore
12. Silverstone
13. Hockenheim*
14. Austin
*(Conservative estimate for Zandvoort)*
15. Hungaroring
16. Catalunya
17. Shanghai
18. Mexico City
19. Abu Dhabi
20. Bahrain
21. Buddh**
22. Sochi
*(My fear for Hanoi)*
23. Valencia**
24. Yeongam**
25. Monte Carlo

Keep in mind, I'm trying to compare like to like, which means the odd wet race has to be regarded as something of an outlier if the circuit in question normally doesn't produce that level of racing intrigue.

Also, non-permanent circuits that manage decent racing may get a bump up; on this note, Singapore would be higher, but the changes around the Anderson Bridge have definitely hurt the racing there in the last few years. Baku might also be higher, but for the absurdity of having DRS, at least on that 2.2-km front stretch.

In addition, if the circuits are close enough in racing terms, I may clump them, but the order they're in may not be a totally precise thing.

So something like:
Tier 1: 1-3
Tier 2: 4-8
Tier 3: 9-12
Tier 4: 13-16
Tier 5: 17-20
Tier 6: 21-24
And Monaco is in a class all its own.

And then, with a circuit like Istanbul, it's hard to know exactly how things would go with the current cars, but I don't think the racing now would be any worse.

Finally, on the bright side, some of the worst ones didn't last a terribly long time.
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