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Old 29 Aug 2013, 21:56 (Ref:3295902)   #51
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thetool should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridthetool should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think you've completely missed what Aunt Sally is getting at.
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Old 29 Aug 2013, 21:58 (Ref:3295905)   #52
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Craner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Ahhh. I getcha
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Old 29 Aug 2013, 22:05 (Ref:3295910)   #53
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I think you've completely missed what Aunt Sally is getting at.
It would appear so...
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Old 29 Aug 2013, 22:57 (Ref:3295931)   #54
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It would appear so...
Think HSCC Super Touring Car Trophy.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 01:10 (Ref:3295966)   #55
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If we are having a fantasy land moment, perhaps for 2015 rather than next year I'd like to see an extended race at each of the meetings so the calendar would look something like this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Fantasy BTCC.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	125.1 KB
ID:	41210

Race 1 is run for the normal distance and at championship ballast as currently the case

Race 2 is run with No Ballast but a compulsory 2 tyre pit stop. a 10 lap window but pits closed when safety car out - pit window delays or extends as necessary.

I decided on a approx.50 mile limit as beyond that is getting into endurance territory, so with the pitstop it's still a sprint.

Brands Indy and Knockhill have been increased by a third and not taken to the full 50 miles due to the circuit size. The new distances are only 2 and 4 laps longer than the current Porsche races at each circuit but include the pitstop to keep interest going.

Race 3 is run for the normal distance but Ballast is allocated based on aggregate results from Race 1 and 2

Tyres
Currently teams allowed 12 new and 6 old slicks per weekend, this would increase to 14 new and 8 old to accommodate the pitstop.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 07:04 (Ref:3296034)   #56
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Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan View Post
If we are having a fantasy land moment, perhaps for 2015 rather than next year I'd like to see an extended race at each of the meetings so the calendar would look something like this:

Attachment 41210

Race 1 is run for the normal distance and at championship ballast as currently the case

Race 2 is run with No Ballast but a compulsory 2 tyre pit stop. a 10 lap window but pits closed when safety car out - pit window delays or extends as necessary.

I decided on a approx.50 mile limit as beyond that is getting into endurance territory, so with the pitstop it's still a sprint.

Brands Indy and Knockhill have been increased by a third and not taken to the full 50 miles due to the circuit size. The new distances are only 2 and 4 laps longer than the current Porsche races at each circuit but include the pitstop to keep interest going.

Race 3 is run for the normal distance but Ballast is allocated based on aggregate results from Race 1 and 2

Tyres
Currently teams allowed 12 new and 6 old slicks per weekend, this would increase to 14 new and 8 old to accommodate the pitstop.
In some ways that's like last seasons' British F3, but with the 'feature' race and reverse grid swapped. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing that, but I doubt that will happen, especially with pit stops being about 40 seconds with the wheels having more than one nut. I think that'll take some getting used to in the BTCC paddock!

As for the ballast, that would never work. Run it in the feature, but decrease it so:

1st - 40kg
2nd - 32kg
3rd - 24kg
4th - 16kg
5th - 8kg

This means it will have less of an effect on the racing.

Anyway, that's what I'd do. This won't happen next season anyway, so I don't know why I'm bothering, unless we're going to group together and propose the idea to Mr Gow himself!
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 08:09 (Ref:3296047)   #57
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Mr Gow did seem quite keen in the KX post-race event at bringing in new style races as soon as the grid was all NGTC, although it might be worth waiting another year for all the teams to get their entries settled.

Pit stops would be interesting, but might be problematic for some of the smaller teams. They would definitely have to include a minimum time or strict team member limits for these to keep things fair across the grid.

One other idea that Mr Gow did moot was that of the return of night races - something he would be happy to see - although this would be subject to the circuits being able to provide necessary lighting and so unfortunately is unlikely to happen any time soon (unless they could pair up with Britcar or the 2CV 24hrs race?).
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 08:13 (Ref:3296049)   #58
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Mr Gow did seem quite keen in the KX post-race event at bringing in new style races as soon as the grid was all NGTC, although it might be worth waiting another year for all the teams to get their entries settled.

Pit stops would be interesting, but might be problematic for some of the smaller teams. They would definitely have to include a minimum time or strict team member limits for these to keep things fair across the grid.

One other idea that Mr Gow did moot was that of the return of night races - something he would be happy to see - although this would be subject to the circuits being able to provide necessary lighting and so unfortunately is unlikely to happen any time soon (unless they could pair up with Britcar or the 2CV 24hrs race?).
The one big problem with night races is the live TV coverage. It's realistically one or the other. Unless they're planning on running an extensive highlights package, then that likely won't work as well.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 08:49 (Ref:3296065)   #59
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The one big problem with night races is the live TV coverage. It's realistically one or the other. Unless they're planning on running an extensive highlights package, then that likely won't work as well.
I'd have thought that ITV4 could find time in its busy detective show line-up to show the race live on a Saturday evening. It would probably only be once or twice a year.

If anything the evening timing might get more viewers, it would be particularly good if they could find a title sponsor and as well as championship points, make it a feature race.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 09:48 (Ref:3296093)   #60
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Personally I wouldn't mind seeing that, but I doubt that will happen, especially with pit stops being about 40 seconds with the wheels having more than one nut. I think that'll take some getting used to in the BTCC paddock!
NGTC have a centre lock wheel nut, S2000 have more than one. So once the S2000s are phased out (in 2014 maybe) it wouldn't be a problem.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 10:52 (Ref:3296118)   #61
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If I recall in years gone by the Snetterton night race was held in summer, so even when it was midnight the temps were still quite warm. To placate ITV (and to make the live coverage make sense), I would think the races would need to be run at an earlier time, which would mean not in the summer. So then you would probably have to run it very early in the season or towards the end, so that at 5 / 6pm its dark enough.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 11:48 (Ref:3296133)   #62
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rdjones should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrdjones should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrdjones should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrdjones should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The first time I went to Snetterton was in 2003 and they ran the whole meeting on the Saturday with the last BTCC finishing IIRC about 9.30.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 11:49 (Ref:3296135)   #63
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Are you being serious. Please tell me this is a joke! The top drivers in this series have every right to be described as some of the best in the world. Look how Turkington did in the WTCC. James Nash learnt in the BTCC and is now a WTCC winner. Tom Chilton is doing ok. What about your Mullers and Menus and Tarquinis. Where did they come from?
He said "the guys at the top of BTCC" meaning to me, he's talking about the guys in it right now - not who used to be in it like Muller, Menu or Tarquini.

Quite frankly, Turkington is the only decent driver on the grid. It is clear he is streets ahead of anybody else in the BTCC, and doesn't punt-to-pass like the majority do.

But to say that the guys at the top of the BTCC are some of the best "in the world" compared against some of the drivers in the likes of DTM, V8 Supercars, or even WTCC, it's a ludicrous suggestion. They're not even in the same league, to be fair.

But I guess this is a debate to be had in a "who is the best touring car driver in the world right now" thread.

Last edited by Thaw Daggerslash; 30 Aug 2013 at 11:54.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 12:27 (Ref:3296145)   #64
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Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash View Post
He said "the guys at the top of BTCC" meaning to me, he's talking about the guys in it right now - not who used to be in it like Muller, Menu or Tarquini.

Quite frankly, Turkington is the only decent driver on the grid. It is clear he is streets ahead of anybody else in the BTCC, and doesn't punt-to-pass like the majority do.

But to say that the guys at the top of the BTCC are some of the best "in the world" compared against some of the drivers in the likes of DTM, V8 Supercars, or even WTCC, it's a ludicrous suggestion. They're not even in the same league, to be fair.

But I guess this is a debate to be had in a "who is the best touring car driver in the world right now" thread.
The other thing I'd like to add to Thaw's comments (which I totally agree with) is that the likes of Muller, Munu and Tarquini came from top level international motorsport into the BTCC, they didn't learn their craft there...
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 15:25 (Ref:3296216)   #65
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Sorry, i seem to have stumbled on the slag off BTCC thread. I was looking for the 2014 leads / rumours one.

Turkington, Sheddon, Neal, Plato, Jordan, and Jackson and possibly a few others would hold their own at WTCC level. And before you slate them or me, remember that there are plenty of recent examples of terrible and dangerous driving at WTCC level.

Yes, there are some pay / gentlemen drivers of differing quality. We all know that, it is not news and it is not going to change.

Anyway, I don't really want to see pitsops introduced to BTCC any time soon. The battles are on track, and that is where they should stay. I'm not interested in someone gaining 3 seconds due to a better pitstop. Pistops belong in endurance racing, not short races like BTCC.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 15:47 (Ref:3296227)   #66
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indeed


meanwhile anyone have more info on the NGTC Renault Megane team who plans to enter for 2014 ? and who may be the drivers ?
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 15:56 (Ref:3296230)   #67
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If the Megane rumour is true, then I think its almost a shame that the 2-door Megane isn't eligible because I think its one of the first Renault cars in ages that actually looks pretty good looking. Saying that, I actually really like the look of the new Clio. Renault's have started to get decent again...
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 16:43 (Ref:3296243)   #68
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Tongue in Cheek prediction

1- 888 MG Jason Plato (to have a last crack at the title)
2- 888 MG Sam Tordoff (to challenge Plato for the Title)
3 - 888MG satelite ????? (so Plato gets a new car)
4 Team Dynamics Honda Matt Neal (new car because he can)
5 Team Dynamics Honda Gordon Shedden (to fine tune the shoving)
6 Eurotech Honda Andy Jordan (to re write the laws some more of whats allowed contact wise)
7 Eurotech Honda Jeff Smith (to keep all teams bodyshops busy)
8 Honda Civic ES Racing driver ? (because TOCA need a full NGTC grid)
9 Toyota Avensis Adam Morgan (to race fair and hard as we expect to see in BTCC)
10 Toyota Avensis (Frank Wrathalls Car) Run by Adam Morgan Racing ???(franks dilemma)
11 Speedworks Toyota ??? To fill the grid and try understand NGTC some more
12 Speedworks Toyota ???? As above
13 Team Hard Passat Tony Gilham (usual half season then arrive and drive pilots)
14 Team Hard Passat Pay as you go to fund the above
15 Team Hard Passat Robb Holland to enjoy the scenery and look cool in shades in rain
16 Team Hard Passat Warren Scott because theres no turning back on the dog he bought
17 Team Hard Insignia Joe Girling to get his money back on the car he financed
18 Team Hard Insignia rent a crash for the day
19 Ip tech Racing Cruze Andy Neate because he can
20 Ip tech Racing Cruze Tom Onslowe Cole its another new team hes not driven for yet
21 Renault Megane Jack Goff because hes not driving an Insignia next year
22 Renault Megane Aaron Steele Because he said he would do BTCC
23 Audi A4 Rob Austin because we want him back
24 Audi A4 Dave Newsham because the Toyota this year is poor and the drive is better than Team hards
25 WSR BMW Colin Turkington because hes the WSR Golden Child
26 WSR BMW Robb Collard because he wants to be the WSR golden Child again
27 WSR BMW ??? Foster because he enjoys it
28 Ford Focus Motorbase Matt Jackson because it’s a free drive
29 Ford Focus Motorbase Aaron Smith because hes got the budget
30 Ford Focus Motorbase ???? rent a drive or serious challenger( the dark horse)
31 Unknown ??? for the Team that finds a spare Million to burn !
32 Chris Stockton Cruze because hes spent a fortune on a car that is fit only for BTCC

looks like there isnt much room for new comers , I hope no one misses the entry and ends up with a NGTC car that cant race in any other series .

Is Perhaps BTCC too Risky for people to come up with new budgets ? beyond 2014 we could end up with the same cars until 2020 as there will be no places for new teams with new cars or current cars being parked up

Mr Gow , keep the racing clean and strong
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 16:55 (Ref:3296248)   #69
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One other idea that Mr Gow did moot was that of the return of night races - something he would be happy to see - although this would be subject to the circuits being able to provide necessary lighting and so unfortunately is unlikely to happen any time soon (unless they could pair up with Britcar or the 2CV 24hrs race?).
Gow has said previously that night races and pit stops would not be coming back in the foreseeable future, and from the tone of his comments on the BTCC forum he was getting pretty fed up with people continually asking. Are you sure he was being a bit sarcastic by saying it he was just waiting for someone to stump up the £100K (or whatever) to pay for the lighting.

For what's it's worth, neither Britcar (who no longer run a 24hr race) nor 2CVs install spectator lighting. Even if they did, the 24hr race runs for 24 hours through the night (hence the name). How could the BTCC race in the dark without stopping the race mid-way through the 24hrs?
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 18:17 (Ref:3296280)   #70
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If I recall in years gone by the Snetterton night race was held in summer, so even when it was midnight the temps were still quite warm. To placate ITV (and to make the live coverage make sense), I would think the races would need to be run at an earlier time, which would mean not in the summer. So then you would probably have to run it very early in the season or towards the end, so that at 5 / 6pm its dark enough.
Moving Knockhill into June and you could run into the late evening without lights, it doesn't get dark until 11ish. Added benefit they already run stock cars in the summer months until around 10pm so no noise issues from a later finish.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 18:26 (Ref:3296282)   #71
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Craner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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The first time I went to Snetterton was in 2003 and they ran the whole meeting on the Saturday with the last BTCC finishing IIRC about 9.30.
Yes that was a 'sunset race' rather than a night race.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 19:40 (Ref:3296314)   #72
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I am not sure the format needs a change. Maybe a 20 minute sprint race followed by a 40 minute main race would be nice.

No need for pitstops, also because of the smaller teams.
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 20:33 (Ref:3296331)   #73
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A few dates for your diary
British GP 4th Jul - 6th Jul
Tour de France 5th Jul - 27th Jul
Commonwealth Games 23rd Jul - 3rd Aug

We already know that ITV will give preference to the Tour de France coverage. Don't know what the Commonwealth Games TV coverage will be but I assume TOCA will want to avoid a clash, which means an extended summer break.

Don't have dates for IPL cricket yet but that normally has an impact on TV schedules meaning an early season break
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Old 30 Aug 2013, 21:23 (Ref:3296355)   #74
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Whatever you think though, you must acknowledge that those behind NGTC need applauding. They have created a rule-set which has allowed such a variety of teams to create cars and be, to varying degrees, competitive. If/when we get 32 NGTC's I think they will feel more than validated. Lets not forget this year has been a corker already. It can only get better...


I forgot Tom Onslow-Cole is signed with HARD for at least another two years...


And hasn't an NGTC Mercedes been spoken of on here...
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Old 31 Aug 2013, 11:39 (Ref:3296510)   #75
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Whatever you think though, you must acknowledge that those behind NGTC need applauding. They have created a rule-set which has allowed such a variety of teams to create cars and be, to varying degrees, competitive.
And why is that? Because of the daft, ever changing turbo regulations! No, I'm not Shedden or Plato, but that's the simple truth of the matter.

The thing that really annoys me about NGTC is there is absolutely no incentive to build a strong car, like Honda have, because you just get penalised for being "too competitive" with reduced turbo boost levels.

You might as well enter a shopping trolley with Jeremy Clarkson as a driver, because at some point TOCA is going to give you a performance break that would allow you to be near the front...it's like Alan Gow spins a wheel of fortune before the weekend to determine who is going to be competitive this time.

It just makes the series look a bit like a joke, if I'm honest, and it goes back to what I was saying about the BTCC having no international credibility or reputation any more.

Plus visually, NGTC doesn't do anything for me. The cars wallow through the corners more than an old American muscle car, and sound awful thanks to the turbos...

I honestly think they've gone the wrong way with the regulations. The last time the BTCC tried to go its own way with regulation, with the BTC cars, it was a disaster.

I used to love the BTCC, and these days it just frustrates me more than anything. It is all a bit too gimmicky these days for my liking, and would much rather see the return of the Super Touring type era, where the best driver/car combo won races. There was no success ballast, no reversed grid races, and most importantly, no stupid turbo boost adjustments either!

[/soapbox]
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