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Old 4 Sep 2017, 18:31 (Ref:3764508)   #426
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This article (in spanish) says that Silverstone was on for August next year initially, then Porsche pulled the plug and the wec said 'we're going to the winter schedule'. But he makes it clear Silverstone can be back on the calendar!
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 20:03 (Ref:3764534)   #427
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And how much was Porsche's public comments on the rules kissing up to the ACO/patting the ACO on the back and trying to paint things in positive light for them?

There were reports the same day the rules came out about Porsche being cynical about the new rules, but it seems that few believed them until Porsche did announce their pull out. When Audi left, we had to know that Porsche or Toyota would be next. In reality, when Nissan left and no one else was coming in to replace them, we should've guessed that things could be in big trouble should one of the big three leave.

And why so much negativity? Because us arm chair enthusiasts seem to have a better check on the pulse of things than the sanctioning bodies do. Fans are often resistant to change, so often are sanctioning bodies. But it's sometimes necessary. And the ACO wouldn't be in the position of trying to reinvent the wheel if they didn't try reinventing the wheel before and have it ultimately fall apart.
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 20:10 (Ref:3764536)   #428
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Someone's on a roll here.
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 20:21 (Ref:3764539)   #429
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And it's certainly rolling around and coming back again, and again, and again.......
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 21:49 (Ref:3764554)   #430
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On the technical regs, all I can say is that they should have had hybrid as one of an array of options, not the ONLY option in LMP1 (let's not kid ourselves about the privateer P1s, at least up to this point).

The thought that the WEC needs to build up its own "new classics" is well taken, but it's not that easy. First, they NEED to be prepared to go to Grade 2 circuits, which with Sebring 2019 being on there, indicates the door might be opening for that; we shall see. Another major hurdle though, is very simply, there's this little race on an 8.469-mile circuit in France that kind of dominates things. And yes, the sheer scale of that venue DOES matter and does make a difference. There's really just the Nordschleife left in terms of a course on that kind of a grand scale. Putting that aside, reducing the number of events on "modern", sterile-looking/feeling circuits would certainly help. And that does include things like the UK round moving to Donington Park or (my personal preference) Brands Hatch GP. I suppose Toyota's withdrawal could make Suzuka more possible. I wish China had some better options than Zhuhai or Shanghai. If they go there, hopefully Kuwait is more interesting than Bahrain. Also on the Asia front, I'd rather like to see the big cars have a go at Buriram; it's "modern", but the layout is refreshingly simple. If you want to build a real event in South America, I think it either has to be Interlagos or Potrero de los Funes.

As to AoB's comments, I don't think Mosport is too short, but it's too cold up there that time of year.

I think Buenos Aires would only make sense if you could find a way to run that long loop, like the WSC did in 1971-72. I don't know why you think Rio Hondo's layout would be a problem.

I don't see why Porsche owning Kyalami is a problem when Toyota owns Fuji.

As for circuits Down Under, Albert Park is temporary; Eastern Creek is alright; Surfers Paradise in present form is too short, and temporary; Taupo is too short and fiddly in its layout; Hampton Downs would be a better choice. Personally, if the WEC ever made it down there, I'd be lusting after Phillip Island; I love Bathurst, but negotiating traffic from The Cutting to Forest Elbow would be quite hazardous.

I'm a bit surprised the ACO hasn't been working on the Latin American sector particularly. And if they went back to more of an ILMC model, that would help their range of events to choose from. It would have been better if they'd just kept that format.

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Old 4 Sep 2017, 22:38 (Ref:3764576)   #431
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And it's certainly rolling around and coming back again, and again, and again.......
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 23:12 (Ref:3764581)   #432
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I wish China had some better options than Zhuhai or Shanghai. .


Zhejiang looks like a pretty nice course. Not sure if it's grading but looking at on boards shows it's pretty serious. There is a prepped live streamed race there this weekend for the first time ever so will find out!


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Old 4 Sep 2017, 23:15 (Ref:3764582)   #433
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I like this place in South America

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deUGVa9vMCs

San Luis was an excellent place for those FIA GT1's. I miss that series

EDIT- here's a better video in english https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3yyHYQbBRI

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Old 4 Sep 2017, 23:18 (Ref:3764583)   #434
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The WEC does need to look into new markets and branch out. I believe, to be fair, that Interlagos was on the schedule for so long because Peugeot wanted it on there, the promoter paid the fee until 2014, and Audi Sport had Athera (a Brazilian automotive firm) as a sponsor at one stage.

South America would seem logical for the winter races as it's warmer down there, but so would Australia and maybe even southern or western North America.

But indeed, the WEC will have to make their own way if they want to have a permanent place in North America or outside of Europe. And I don't think they can do that by piggy-backing on something like the 12 Hours of Sebring, no matter how much I may like Sebring as a track and an event.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 00:03 (Ref:3764588)   #435
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Brands Hatch and Donington probably aren't realistic options these days. Brands Hatch has a super cramped paddock, is a really narrow and cramped track for multi-class with the kind of speed difference there would be between LMP1 and GTE-Am, and has all the problems with the local nimbys that are more problematic for an endurance race. Frankly I don't think it would be safe. Donington still has to be put back together after the aborted F1 renovation before they can run anything on that scale. There's a reason Silverstone is the only one hosting any of the world championships anymore and that Silverstone thinks it can get away with playing hard ball with Liberty.

WEC would like to be in South America but the reality is the quality of tracks and promoters just is not there. Interlagos was as good as it gets and even that was pretty pathetic.

I don't see switching from Fuji to Suzuka adding any kind of upside, they're both classic tracks and Fuji has more history with this kind of sports car racing.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 01:03 (Ref:3764598)   #436
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 01:20 (Ref:3764599)   #437
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Donington IS "back together" (from 2013).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ApJTFKb4Rc

Brands Hatch isn't inordinately narrow or tight compared to, say, Road Atlanta. Its corners are more flowing than Sebring, so less prone to choke points. It has more run-off in some key places, even out on the GP Loop, than some critical bends at Interlagos, Road Atlanta, Road America, etc.

Silverstone has attention, and sucks the air out of the room; that's principally what it is. As far as the track itself is concerned, I prefer Brands Hatch GP, Oulton Park, Donington Park, Thruxton, and possibly Snetterton over Silverstone.

Suzuka was used for some competitions even in its early years, and it was also a regular fixture from the start of the Japanese Group C championship. Suzuka also has FAR more of its classic feel remaining compared to Fuji.

South America is MUCH more lacking in top-line promoters, it seems, because it is NOT lacking in good, polished race circuits, especially in Brazil and Argentina. Brazil has Curitiba, Goiania, and Interlagos at least. Admittedly, Curvelo/dos Christais lacks finish, and they NEED to finish getting Brasilia back together. As for their neighbor, Argentina has Buenos Aires, San Luis/Rosendo Hernandez, Potrero de los Funes (thank you TF110 for posting that), and if I go out on a limb, La Pampa and La Pedrera.

Bc6, um, I'm sorry, but Zhejiang is NOT suitable for the WEC. It's only 1.98 miles around, with 16 corners, and only two of those are definitively quick. It would not surprise me if this track is slower than every street circuit the ALMS visited, bar the 2002 iteration of the Miami course. The pit lane only has 28 boxes, and those may not be considered large enough for this series. I would MUCH sooner look at the WEC going to Ningbo.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 04:43 (Ref:3764636)   #438
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Donington is open yes, much like the Red Bull Ring the first couple years it was reopened the facilities aren't even on par with what it used to have let alone more modern standards.

The GP section at Brands Hatch is much narrower than even the esses at Road Atlanta, it's barely more than 3 cars wide.

While it's hard to pass in the esses and the final turn the rest of Road Atlanta is pretty easy for traffic. At Brands there's like 3 straight turns equivalent to the last turn at Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca tier straights.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 05:20 (Ref:3764641)   #439
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From the SuperBike stuff this year, the run-offs, garages, and pit lane at Donington look fine. I would expect that it's an FIA Grade 2, and it has to be an FIM Grade B since WSBK is running there this year.

No, Brands looks no narrower than Road America, Road Atlanta, Mosport Park, or Watkins Glen other than the front straight. (You wouldn't dare try more than three wide at Road America, especially on the approach to Turn 5 or from the Carousel to the Kink and on through Kettle Bottoms.) If there is a difference, it's the difference between 9 meters and 30 feet, which is less than 6 inches. So no, the Esses at Road Atlanta aren't any wider. Now, there are places at VIR that have seen a bit of widening in the last handful of years.

If you want to see narrow, go watch the 1999 ALMS broadcast from Mosport, which was before the widening and full resurfacing. Back then, Mosport was as narrow as 26 feet in places, and generally was about 28 feet wide.

Aside from Druids, there really are no slow corners at Brands Hatch, unlike Laguna Seca, and as such, a number of the straights are preceded by quicker corners than at Laguna, so the straights work as though they are longer. And, in fact, they necessarily must be longer on the whole at Brands. When you get down to it, Brands Hatch GP is 2.623 miles with, effectively, 9 corners. Laguna Seca is 2.238 miles with 11 corners. Do the division, it's more than 450 feet per segment in favor of Brands Hatch.

Looking at GTP/Group C records, Brands Hatch GP was about as fast on average speed as Road Atlanta or Spa-Francorchamps in the late '80s, and while Graham Hill Bend was more open then, they had the Dingle Dell Chicane and a tighter Stirling's.

Since they added the new section to Laguna Seca for 1988, it hasn't been in the same league, average speed wise. GTP record on the 2.214-mile layout was 111.8 mph. LMP2 record on the 2.238-mile layout is 114.9 mph. So, it's a little ways off the 128-mph bracket set at Brands in 1989.

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Old 5 Sep 2017, 07:38 (Ref:3764659)   #440
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I'd love to see LMPs at Brands Hatch, imagine that, that would be a sight to see.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 07:42 (Ref:3764660)   #441
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And how much was Porsche's public comments on the rules kissing up to the ACO/patting the ACO on the back and trying to paint things in positive light for them?
They were probably aimed at the higher ups in the company. "The new regulations are really good. Please don't end the program."
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 18:09 (Ref:3764779)   #442
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I really don't see what the width Mosport had when it was being boycotted by manufacturers has to do with anything. It's 42' now. Road Atlanta is about 40'. Even as old as Watkins Glen is it's mostly 36'.

Now Road America is only around 30' the same as Brands Hatch, that is actually true, but Road America is also 1.5 miles longer with much more straight forward passing zones and has extended the track out by a car width or two past the curb tons of places to give an escape route pretty much everywhere but the kink. Brands Hatch is a narrow track with an even narrower line and super risky passing zones.

Actually I don't know why I forgot Donington has WSBK. Was slated for MotoGP as well. I guess it can't be worse facility wise than Sebring anyways. That would work fine if it isn't an ELMS doubleheader like Silverstone was.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 23:35 (Ref:3764847)   #443
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Apparently the TBA date is in the Americas and not the Middle East. Per Daily Sports Car:

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During an interview on the grid ahead of last weekend’s 6 Hours of Mexico, the FIA WEC CEO Gerard Neveu hinted live on air where the TBC location listed for February 2019 could be.

“It will be a calendar with many races,” he said, when asked to explain the new ‘Super Season’ to fans watching the broadcast. “Two in Asia, two in Europe and two in America or South America.”
So very likely Interlagos or Mexico City.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 23:49 (Ref:3764849)   #444
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Well, we'll see where this goes. Here's that piece from RACER.

http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...or-wec-in-2019
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 23:58 (Ref:3764852)   #445
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I've seen enough video from the various road courses, both Sportscar and IndyCar, and I can say that I am convinced by the comparison of how many cars you can get abreast that, except for some limited sections, Mosport, Road Atlanta, and Watkins Glen are only 30 feet wide, just like Road America.

I can see the front straight at Watkins Glen being 38 feet wide, which is what the "CIRCUITI" site lists, but the rest is 30 feet wide; you can't go more than three-wide at race speed, just like Road America, not even on the back straight or across the "Sole" of "The Boot".

At Road Atlanta, I can see, where you have that extra apron width on the inside before the pit entry breaks off, that that short section could be 40 feet wide, but the back stretch is only wide enough for three-abreast, just like Road America and Watkins Glen. The run down to Turn 6 is just as narrow, and the same goes for the front straight, which at Road Atlanta, there really isn't room to widen it with pit walls on both sides.

I just refreshed with the pace laps and first few laps of the race at Mosport for IMSA earlier this year. Like Road Atlanta, there is a widening where pit-in breaks off, from the apex of Turn 9 to the apex of Turn 10, more or less. In that section, there could be a short stretch of track that is 42 feet wide, but the rest of the lap, no. It's the same story as the others. At race speed, they don't go more than three-wide on the Andretti Straight, and apart from maybe some foolishness on a start or restart, they don't try more than three-abreast even on the pit straight.

Like I've said, from all the camera shots I've seen in race coverage, especially those head-on shots looking back up the straights, except for limited stretches, all those road courses are just 30 feet wide. The Lexus RC F GT3 Concept was 78.7 inches wide, and I paused on the pace lap with the GT3 in shot and looked carefully; there was no way you could physically get five of those side-by-side while sitting still without putting tires in the grass.

If what I'm seeing on the ground doesn't match the spec sheet, I'll throw out the spec sheet. It's like when they were comparing on RLM the fastest Qualifying laps at Algarve between A1GP and LMS, but noting that A1GP was listed as running a different course length. I sent in a message to the guys in the booth; Hindy even read it. The point was, I'd seen video of both series there, and they used the same layout of the track, so even though the spec sheets said different, I knew the lap lengths were actually the same.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 01:09 (Ref:3764859)   #446
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Experience tells me that, while the pros may be able to handle it (the hybrid punch could be problematic in certain sections though), the ams in P2 would be dangerous around Brands. Only the back straight has all the elements around it to allow a done and dusted overtake of GT cars before diving on the brakes.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 01:17 (Ref:3764860)   #447
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WGI is 36' to 48' with the average at 48' (so basically the vast majority is 36'). Of course that figure is pretty irrelevant because turn 1 is more like 150' wide these days.


It's easily 4 lanes though, it just seems narrow because of how close the guard rails are.

Mosport is wide enough to go 5 wide, the pit entry is the narrowest area if anything.




Road Atlanta being 40' comes from the satellite images by the way, and it's clearly 5 car widths.



As far as the front stretch goes, the inside pit lane wasn't there until after its last major renovation when they widened it to modern standards.

The Brands Indy circuit is quite wide and much more modern in terms of catch fences and the like.

It's when you hit the GP loop and a series of 4th-5th gear corners things get hairy.

There's been some really scary crashes on that part of the track so the prospect of an LMP tripping over a GT car like we've seen at the Dunlop esses, Porsche curves, or Farm curve at Silverstone is quite worrying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5lZutPcfA
That's just GT3 on GT4.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 03:35 (Ref:3764867)   #448
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http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/09/0...eturn-whiting/

If they're considering it, so can we!
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 05:02 (Ref:3764871)   #449
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I'm just going to assume you mixed up your numbers at WGI when it comes to the "average".

What you can physically fit when the vehicles are sitting still and what you can realistically do when at racing speeds are two entirely different things.

Four lanes? The Dallara DW12 is 79.2 inches wide, so (72.9x4)/12=26.4 feet. Even I don't think "the Boot" is THAT narrow.

Wouldn't the optical illusion work the other way? That is, if the track fills up more of the space between the barriers, isn't that going to mike it look wider, not narrower? BTW, with my eyesight, when I focus in close on the images, I don't have a large enough area of fine focus to really see the barriers, which kind of negates the illusion anyway.

Five wide? The latest iteration of the Porsche 911 GT3 Cup is 72.87 inches wide. So, for ease of calculation, (73x5)/12=30.417 feet, or 30 feet, 5 inches.

The maximum allowed width for a GTE/GTLM car is 2,050 mm or 80.7 inches.

I can't get the full listing to show on the Google search page, but at the least, the Toyota Camry (NASCAR) is 71.7 inches wide, and the Chevrolet SS is 74.76 inches wide.

The 2017 LMP2s have a maximum width of 1,900 mm, or 74.8 inches.

That Aston Martin looked not entirely dissimilar to what happened with Katherine Legge in the 2006 ChampCar race at Road America when her rear wing failed on the approach to "the Kink". I don't like it, but ALL of these older circuits have quite a history of nasty accidents. You'd have to practically destroy them to largely eliminate that risk.

The LMPs won't be doing the sorts of speeds shortly after Surtees that they will be at Farm or in the Porsche Curves, especially not the non-hybrid LMPs. In a sense, it's actually better having the barriers so close, because there simply isn't the space for the car to travel, and for its momentum vector to shift to as steep an angle of impact. If they need a spotters' stand there just past Surtees, or at the fallaway of Pilgrim's Drop, I'm sure that could be sorted relatively easily.

If driving standards have fallen so much that it's an inordinate risk at this point, compared to what they face at other circuits, which I don't think it's worse than LM, then that speaks to a bigger problem. In that case, the drivers actually NEED MORE exposure to "a proper racetrack" (thank you John Watson) to instill a healthy sense of precaution and respect. Then, and only then, will less "stupid stuff" occur.

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Old 6 Sep 2017, 05:13 (Ref:3764874)   #450
Purist
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AoB, the GTs don't use all the road for the second apex of Westfield or the apex at Dingle Dell, so an LMP2 can get up the inside there without much trouble. They can also breathe it slightly, get a good run through Sheene's, and have a go into or through Stirling's, which is banked.

The runs from Stirling's to Clearways and Clearways to Paddock Hill are of a decent length as well; it's not as if the bit from Surtees to Hawthorne is the only notable "straight" on the circuit. Furthermore, the more powerful LMP2s should have an easier time getting through the GTs than has been the case the last several years.

Honestly, with the smaller radii for a number of the bends, kinks, and meanders at Sebring, I'd expect there would be more traffic issues in certain places there than at Brands.
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