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19 Feb 2001, 01:46 (Ref:65476) | #1 | |
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Dale Earnhardt my you rest in peace I neverhad a chance to talk to you, but you were a great driver as I was suprise to see in the Rolex 500 with your son.
I m sad to see the son losing his father Ill pray for you . NOT a SSSSSuper day FEB 18 Sorry GP19 P.F.E. |
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19 Feb 2001, 05:48 (Ref:65490) | #2 | ||
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Stunned
I just logged on and read it on Netscape. I just feel so depressed and sad. I do have one question - would the fitting of air bags been sensible on these cars, and would they have prevented his tradjic death? If not, please just say so - at this moment, I do not need any facetious replies. I just feel so damn bad.
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19 Feb 2001, 13:25 (Ref:65530) | #3 | |
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Even though the commentators said it was a big hit the accident didn't look as bad as others I have seen where the guys have walked away. To me there was something strange about it like the Denny Hulme crash at Bathurst in '92. Maybe he had a heart attack or something. I guess I'll wait for a report from the coroner before judging 10 seconds of news footage. As for the airbags, I think they are a bit impractical for motorsport as they have been tested for F1 but haven't been adopted. Better restraint systems like the HANS system are probably the way to go.
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19 Feb 2001, 13:55 (Ref:65536) | #4 | ||
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Initial reports here in the US say that he suffered from basal skull and spinal separation from the force of the impact at over 180 mph with the wall. The spine and neck vertabrae are stretched by the mass of the head and helmet continuing forward and severe tissue damage results, including the severing of the arteries supplying blood to the brain.
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19 Feb 2001, 15:39 (Ref:65546) | #5 | |
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As much rubbing as they do in Nascar airbags would deploy all the time. All the recent crashes that have happened in the last year in Nascar don't really seem that bad. Now they'll want to slow the cars down even more. Two words "Crumple zones".
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19 Feb 2001, 15:58 (Ref:65547) | #6 | ||
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The cars have as much crumple zone as possible considering they are front-engine design. The mass of the engine block and transmission will not absorb as much energy as a car with only a footbox in its place as in F1 or CART. Earnhardt's crash resulted in his death because of severe internal neck injuries. No airbag can deploy fast enough when the car goes from 180+mph to zero in less than one second. The HANS device would probably not been enough to save his life becasue of the force of the impact. In 1995, Mansell struck the wall at Phoenix at 170mph going backwards. It too was a freak incident, he impacted perpendicular to the wall and pulled 43 g's of force. It ruptured his kidney and gave him internal bruising over his whole body. All of this while being driven back into the seat, with his full back and helmet being supported by the seat and monocoque. Imagine doing it going forward, with only a 5 point harness trapping your body. The harnesses do not have enough surface area to absorb that much force and the organ trauma is severe. The brain itself will crash forward into the skull while still travelling at race speed even if the head is held still.
Speedway racing is a very dangerous business. The outer wall must be thick enough to stop a 3500 pound missile going near 200mph from passing thorugh it and killing and destroying everything in its path outside the track. Unfortunately this risk must be borne by the racer and while most escape with only injuries, some will pay the ultimate price. |
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19 Feb 2001, 18:13 (Ref:65568) | #7 | ||
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19 Feb 2001, 18:13 (Ref:65569) | #8 | ||
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Its very sad news. I was stunned watching the race as I realized that the situation was much more serious than the commentatrors were letting on. Watching Michael Waltrip celebrate his breakthrough victory I was struck by the irony of his lack of awareness of the seriouys crash his team owner had experienced. Racing is a serious beast and every now and them it rears up and bites. The result is never easy to take, but especially when its a driver of unparrelled skill and experience. RIP, Good Buddy, you will be missed.
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19 Feb 2001, 21:01 (Ref:65605) | #9 | ||
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dale never gave an inch..right up to the end.
he was the senna of stockcar racing. a hero. long may you run. |
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19 Feb 2001, 21:23 (Ref:65615) | #10 | ||
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All of them since 1995:
NASCAR.- John Nemecheck (1997) Adam Petty (2000) Kenny Irwin (2000) Tony Roper (2000) Dale Earnhart Sr. (2001) CART and IRL.- Scott Brayton (1996) Jeff Krossnoff (1996) Gonzalo Rodriguez (1999) Greg Moore (1999) How many more will it take till we acknowledge that the oval racing series and the cars built for them need to be made safer? No, I don't believe that "the driver must accept the risk to pay the ultimate price" unless every technological effort has been made to improve the cars or change the nature of the racetracks. I know there will be a chorus stating "it can't be done". Let us remember that Formula 1 was a similar scenario until the F1 community took ownership of the unreasonable risks involved. We haven't lost a single F1 driver since "black Imola" in 1994. There is a lesson to be learned from F1. More boring racing? Perhaps, but how much fun is it to watch new widows and orphans?. We need someone with the courage and integrity that Jackie Stewart had in F1 to focus everyone's attention and efforts for safer oval racing. An added tragedy to what happened in Daytona is that we lost the one driver that had the stature to lead such an effort. And please, let not say "he'd prefer to see racing remain exciting and dangerous". I firmly believe, he'd rather be alive. |
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19 Feb 2001, 21:38 (Ref:65618) | #11 | |
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RT, Krosnoff and Rodriguez were not killed on ovals. Apart from that, I don't feel like commenting much at the moment.
I've just watched a tribute to Dale Earnhardt on Eurosport. It brought tears to my eyes. I don't follow NASCAR all that closely, but Earnhardt had been around for such a long time - the man was NASCAR to me. The fact that a thread has been started about him here in the F1 forum, and that so many have replied to it in such a short time, is a testimony to just how highly he's regarded. It's been an awful day. I don't feel like saying anything more now. |
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19 Feb 2001, 23:57 (Ref:65651) | #12 | ||
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Like somebody else said, it didn't look that serious to me(initially). The car hit the wall at an angle but there was sufficient momentum from the car that hit Dale to keep the car going in the direction of the track. It didn't look like 180 to zero to me. In fact, we have seen worse crashes in this race. Something must have occured that we are not aware of - the impact must have been a helluva lot worse than seemed to the viewers. I am just trying to think what sort of restraint would have minimised the sudden deceleration. It seems tha airbags is not the answer because they will be popping off in all directions during the race. I don't know? I am just looking for answers whcih are probably not there.
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20 Feb 2001, 00:59 (Ref:65653) | #13 | |
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Do you think it is possible to line the track with styrofoam borders in front of the concreate?
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20 Feb 2001, 01:20 (Ref:65656) | #14 | ||
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RacerX, the answer is no. This has been discussed at length in this forum before. I think that if the cars hit the wall a glancing blow at almost the same direction as the smooth concrete wall, the impact would not be that severe. Unfortunately, for some reason Dale swerved left towards the infield and then the car snapped back on the opposite lock towards the wall, hitting the wall at an angle of about 30 degrees (from my estimate, and I could be wrong). This would have generated tremendous deceleration as well as a sudden change in direction back to the direction of the track. Unless you have about 3 or 4 metres of rubber, there would not be sufficient energy absorption to minimise such an impact. The rubber would be countr productive in a glancing blow because it would catch the car and send it into a spin or even flip the car in front of all those behind. Styrofoam is so light it would not absorb any energy at all on impact.
However, I was just thinking,could the inside of the car be lined with something to minimise the sudden snapping motion of the body on impact? as well as to absorb the impact of the driver moving forward?? |
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20 Feb 2001, 02:00 (Ref:65662) | #15 | ||
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If you watch Dale's crash in slo-mo & time the impact, you'll see that his actual closing speed with the wall was only about 30 MPH, pretty much the same as has repetedly been recorded by the Ford black box fitted to CART & IRL cars. That is a very severe speed to hit a stationary object, but also very survivable IF the right crumple zones are built into the car.
Dale's problem seems to have been an offshoot to the fact that stock car frames have been designed in recent years a lot stiffer than before. In his crash, the frame was the first thing of any structure that hit the wall - the bodywork ahead of the frame did nothing to decelerate the car before the very unforgiving frame came in contact. Note how little the frame crushed and compare it to similar crashes of years past. Because of that, the deceleration was damned near instantanious, rather than gradual as it would have been it a decent crush box had been installed in the empty space within the nose ahead of the frame. At the point that the frame stopped crushing, Dale was probably still doing 30 MPH relative to the wall, with only the steering wheel and his harness available to decelerate him. The reports that he suffered massive chest injuries seem to support that scenario. He would have literally been bounced backwards off of the wheel at nearly the same speed with which he hit it, causing severe whiplash, and in turn, the basal skull fractures. Put bluntly, he didn't have a prayer of surviving that crash, even had he been wearing a HANS device. Even a carbon chest plate may not have spread the loads enough to prevent crushing his chest. Maybe now NASCAR will finally pay attention to crush structures. Their insane stubbornness of refusing to mandate crumple zones like darn near every other pro racing series not only lost them a driving legend, but also their biggest cash cow. Maybe the money factor will finally cause them to wake up. Sorry if that sounds like a cruel thing to say, but you may not know NASCAR's priorities the way I do. Dale will be missed for many years to come. |
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20 Feb 2001, 05:28 (Ref:65674) | #16 | ||
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I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, Ma. You watched the accident in slow motion, and timed the impact and determined the closing speed was only 30 MPH. I cannot see how that is possible, because he would have only hit the wall at an angle of 10 degrees to the direction of travel. I worked it out using Trig. I thought that Dale hit the wall at an angle closer to 30 degrees, whereby the closing speed to the wall would have been 180sin30degrees = 90 MPH. With a safety helmut and full safety harness, a crash to full stop at 30 MPH is unlikely to have killed him. However, I am relying on memory of the crash from this morning's news, and I am sure you would be able to check out the angle of impact between the wall and the direction of travel of the car better from your tape. I really don't understand how you worked out the closing speed from a slow motion film. This is all supposition on my part, and if I am wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.
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20 Feb 2001, 15:56 (Ref:65709) | #17 | ||
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Could it be that Earnhardt's death was due to two sub-lethal impacts?. Each was survivable on its own but with an additive effect that caused the vertebrae/skull to break?.
Bu the way, I appreciate all the technical input provided by Valve Bounce and Ma. My question really is: Could it be that the head was set in an odd position following the first (wall) impact that made the cervical vertebrae more succeptible to the second (car) impact? I'll appreciate your comments. As much as I've watched the accident, I'm still puzzled, it did not seem that bad. The car slid on along the track and that must have taken off plenty of frontal g's. |
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20 Feb 2001, 16:34 (Ref:65710) | #18 | ||
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The problem that we run into when viewing a wreck such as this is the relative speed of everything else when compared to his car. They are all going over 170mph and there is very little to compare that speed to that is a stationary reference. Our eyes and brain place everything in a certain frame of reference so that it can realize it faster. Just like when we travel for a long distance in a road car at high speed and then travel more slowly it feels like the car is barely moving. Our brain makes us believe that what we have seen is happening at a much slower speed so that we can comprehend it.
After studying the tape crash investigators estimate that Earnhardt's car struck the wall with around 150 to 200 g's of force. The human body will not withstand that level of force with all of today's safety technology being used. |
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20 Feb 2001, 18:59 (Ref:65723) | #19 | ||
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The angle of approach method of calculating speed is valid if you assume that the car is not decelerating during the approach. In Dale's case, the car was decelerating, and the angle of impact was closer to 20 degrees than 30.
The force of impact is directly related to deceleration rate, irregardless of speed. 2 feet of controlled deceleration is mor than adequate to lessen an impact like his down to survivable levels. F1 impact studies have shown that 3 inches of the proper foam in a cockpit surround will reduce impact forces from 160 g's in a 30 mph side slapper to less than 60 g's. Dale's problem was that the car did not decelerate at all until the frame hit, and then the decel rate was almost instantanious. A crush box would have reduced the loads by a factor of at least 5. |
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20 Feb 2001, 21:50 (Ref:65781) | #20 | ||
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I'll have to pass on this one, and refer this to some young Engineering student familiar with Aplied Mechanics or Physics. My brainbox is too old and rusty and I acnnot remember the formulae. There is a very simple formula for Impact, which takes into account the initial velocity, the final velocity (this is in the direction of impact) and related to the time of impact. It does sound as if the effect is similar to whiplash, but to be honest with you guys, I simply don't have the heart to have another look at the crash, and I'll just rely on the experts to tell us what happened. I just feel so bad about it. What we have been doing here, I suppose, is just trying to find a solution to this so that this type of accident can be less dangrous in future.
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21 Feb 2001, 11:24 (Ref:65870) | #21 | ||
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I hate to drag this on, but I was pretty shocked at an article I read before all this happened. It basically said (I think this is accurate) that in 30MPH crash the human head weighs the equivelent of 250 pounds! And the brain itself weighs 70 pounds. So I guess that even if the HANS device was used, Dale would have probably suffered some kind of brain damage with the brain hitting the front of the skull. I just don't want everyone to jump on the HANS bandwagon and then find out after the next big crash that it might save the driver but it means that he'll be a vegetable. No driver deserves that.
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21 Feb 2001, 14:46 (Ref:65901) | #22 | ||
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So... what could be the solution ? Low speed times ?
I can't see no solving for that, or you run and take the risk, or you drop out the job. |
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21 Feb 2001, 15:29 (Ref:65905) | #23 | ||
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Thats what it comes down to in the end, do you want to race or not?
It's much easier when the cause of a driver fatality is something definate, e.g. mechanical error or a failure with the car, because then it's obvious that it shouldn't have happened. Thats why the Senna trial went on for so long, there was, and still is, a school of thought that says it was a poor quality steering wheel which broke and made him lose control. But it's not worth getting into that. The point here is that, in this case, it was a racing incident. That's racing. No matter what people say, at some point a driver has to assess the risk he is taking. They accept it and carry on because they have such a passion for racing. I guess the thought of racing and possibly dying is better than not racing at all. You can't really expect to take part in a dangerous sport and not have it come back and bite you. Those that race and survive accidents and retire after a long career are lucky. The safety measures in modern racing cars go a long way to protecting a driver but you can't cheat death forever. It's common sense that if you race long enough then at soome point the big one is going to happen. Thats why I really don't think that it is so bad for someone to die doing something that they love. Ultimately it's the driver that has to decide whether or not to get into the car. |
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22 Feb 2001, 08:57 (Ref:66044) | #24 | ||
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The impact seemed to be affected most by Earnhardt collecting Ken Schrader. That turned him sharply into the wall. Had that collision not happened, I think Dale's car might have continued on a more parallel line before hitting the wall. That could have slowed the car further and reduced the angle of impact.
One of the saddest aspects of this whole tragedy is the bitterness -- even death threats -- directed at Sterling Marlin for his involvement in the crash. |
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23 Feb 2001, 02:10 (Ref:66189) | #25 | ||
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The irony of this incident is that if someone had punted Dale real hard from behind, he would have rolled and survived. I have posted in the NASCAR forum of what I saw when I viewed a tape of the accident using freeze frame. See "How will the sport change" thread. It is interesting that both Dale and car #36 hit the wall at the same speed and at the same angle side by side. Any analysis of the injuries must include checking driver of car #36 as well.
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