Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Baltic Touring Car Championship Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Touring Car Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18 Jul 2019, 08:30 (Ref:3918305)   #51
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by btccbloke View Post
The purpose of this test for Laser Tools was to get some running out of the car, realistically for them this was a shakedown to iron out any major flaws, get some feeling for the car and understand what works and what doesnt, (they were never coming in to top the timesheets with a high boost low weight lap at the end like some ), however for a car effectively running with a turbo problem all day, they were not far off where I would expect them to be for a first timed run in the car.

This is a long project and the Infiniti will see them improve over the next 2-3 seasons by developing a car rather than running the mercedes which has reached the end of its cycle, and a learning curve switching to RWD for Aiden. I would imagine that creating a duct to the turbo would be a reasonably simple task for an experienced race engineer to sort out anyway.
I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.
auroan is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 09:33 (Ref:3918310)   #52
Johno.UK
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 303
Johno.UK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Power to the turbo
You can't assume that readers will have a clue what the exhaust gasses have to do with compressors/waste gates or what intercoolers are. I've met racing drivers who don't know what a driveshaft is for example.

What is common knowledge to one person is voodoo to the next. Journalists have to aim for the "lowest" common denominator in the market in the main.
Of course there is always the possibility that it's a direct quote as well.
Johno.UK is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 09:38 (Ref:3918311)   #53
btccbloke
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Wales
Posts: 1,161
btccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbtccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.

apologies for misinterpretation
btccbloke is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 09:54 (Ref:3918313)   #54
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.
Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 11:04 (Ref:3918319)   #55
RS67
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 835
RS67 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
You lost credibility with that statement when you said sap power to the turbo. This is my whole point. Intake air does not "power" a turbo. The only thing that "powers" a turbo is the exhaust gases that spin up the turbine and therefore the compressor on the same spindle.

Yes heat management is very much a thing for the air being compressed, but that air does not "power" the turbo. My focual point of the autosport comment was the overly simple terminology being used which is basically wrong.
Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.
RS67 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 11:14 (Ref:3918321)   #56
btccbloke
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Wales
Posts: 1,161
btccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbtccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

This is a very good explanation, before criticising the way something is written, remember that the publication be it the site or in paper is read by everyone from the casual person who just occasionally watches but has no interest in mechanical information to people within the teams who were probably involved with preparing the car on the day. Often a very generic statement is understood by all without needing to be pedantic about the real nuts and bolts of a problem.

This is no different to a report saying a driver "retired with engine problems", the reader probably doesnt care that it was lets say a head gasket leak causing compression issues in the 3rd cylinder and lead to overheating and power issues, they just know that the driver is out because of an engine issue.
Autosport is not a low level technical information manual and shouldnt be read as such
btccbloke is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 11:44 (Ref:3918329)   #57
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Motorbase must be encourage by their times, certainly they seem to be getting better each meeting. Certainly was good to see the Alfa putting in good times, even if it was a glory run
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 15:08 (Ref:3918360)   #58
porsche962fan
Veteran
 
porsche962fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,426
porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
if you look the indy standings Motorbase have been rather left behind after Donington by BTC and AMD so they really need to bounce back to have a chance

while on the overall title it's hopeless for them due to WSR steamroller
porsche962fan is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 16:13 (Ref:3918362)   #59
Evantra
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
England
Posts: 3,228
Evantra should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEvantra should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEvantra should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwh43scale View Post
My gallery from yesterday can be found here -

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmFdsBeN
Awesome, thanks for sharing! 👍🏼👍🏼
Evantra is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 16:35 (Ref:3918363)   #60
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.
You have all the components. But described it wrong. Air into the compressor is at atmospheric pressure or may be a little higher if you take into account the ram air effect when the vehicle is travelling forward. It may be heated a little by that but not significantly.

You are thinking of the compressed (boosted air) which is "after" the compressor. This is why we have intercoolers. To cool the compressed air before it enters the inlet manifold.

You are also thinking of compressor stall. Either way only exhaust gases "power" a turbo. If you disagree do some more reading.
auroan is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 16:38 (Ref:3918366)   #61
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by btccbloke View Post
This is a very good explanation, before criticising the way something is written, remember that the publication be it the site or in paper is read by everyone from the casual person who just occasionally watches but has no interest in mechanical information to people within the teams who were probably involved with preparing the car on the day. Often a very generic statement is understood by all without needing to be pedantic about the real nuts and bolts of a problem.

This is no different to a report saying a driver "retired with engine problems", the reader probably doesnt care that it was lets say a head gasket leak causing compression issues in the 3rd cylinder and lead to overheating and power issues, they just know that the driver is out because of an engine issue.
Autosport is not a low level technical information manual and shouldnt be read as such
There is a difference between dumming down but keeping it factually correct.... and dumming down to point it's wrong.

Your example is perfectly fine.
auroan is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 16:42 (Ref:3918367)   #62
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.

Just a shame that one little comment that a few posters have read far to much into or has sporned such responses.
auroan is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:15 (Ref:3918375)   #63
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.
What is wrong with the word ducting?

The exhaust gases that power a turbo are ducted from the cylinder to the compressor. Therefore, those components through which the turbo's power is ducted could correctly be referred to as ducting.

It may not be your choice of terminology, but it's not wrong.

Such a shame people have to incorrectly criticise an article, then get upset when they are corrected.
crmalcolm is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:22 (Ref:3918376)   #64
btccbloke
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Wales
Posts: 1,161
btccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbtccbloke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.

Just a shame that one little comment that a few posters have read far to much into or has sporned such responses.

So for full context: (from AUtosport)
Aiden Moffat made his debut in the revamped Infiniti, which the Laser Tools Racing squad will run for the remainder of the year.
The car currently lacks a proper ducting system to deliver power to the turbo, but the outfit says this will be corrected for the next race meeting at Snetterton on August 4-5.


I am pretty sure anyone, no matter your level of interest in racing or engineering, could pick that up and understand the intent of the piece, I'm not sure how someone can read this and have more questions, be confused or need more information, its a high level article about a test session, not a strip down and rebuild technical information bulletin.
btccbloke is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:38 (Ref:3918378)   #65
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Point is not to believe a word Autosport, in this case, says as the ‘journalist’ probably couldn’t tell a turbo from a gearbox.
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:56 (Ref:3918381)   #66
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
What engine does the Infinity run?
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 18:20 (Ref:3918383)   #67
Johno.UK
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 303
Johno.UK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The article was written by Matt James the editor of Motorsport News so I don't think knowledge is an issue seeing as he has been reporting on BTCC for as long as I can remember.


As far as I know the Infiniti runs the standard TOCA engine in the inline configuration.
Johno.UK is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 19:45 (Ref:3918390)   #68
RS67
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 835
RS67 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
You have all the components. But described it wrong. Air into the compressor is at atmospheric pressure or may be a little higher if you take into account the ram air effect when the vehicle is travelling forward. It may be heated a little by that but not significantly.

You are thinking of the compressed (boosted air) which is "after" the compressor. This is why we have intercoolers. To cool the compressed air before it enters the inlet manifold.

You are also thinking of compressor stall. Either way only exhaust gases "power" a turbo. If you disagree do some more reading.
I am not thinking of the compression air at all. At lower engine speeds the air traveling into the compressor travels at a slower rate. Depending on how that air is directed it can suffer heat soak and the air temperature rises. The turbo has to work harder to produce the same amount of boost. If the turbo is unable to work harder it will be producing less boost and the compressed air will be higher in temperature. If the intercooler is unable to get the charge air temps down. The air will be less dense and the engine will be down on power.
If the air inlet temperature to the compressor remains cold and free flowing, the air is already dense, the air can travel faster through the compressor wheel aiding the turbo to spin up easier and faster, the turbo doesn't have to work so hard, it operates at a cooler temperature, the compressed air is at a lower temperature leaving the turbo meaning the intercooler can do a better job of providing colder denser induction air.
Just because the exhaust gasses do most of the work, you would be wrong to assume they do all of it.
If you disagree try observing it on an engine dyno. Much more informative than just reading books.
RS67 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 21:44 (Ref:3918404)   #69
Pickles
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 986
Pickles should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPickles should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry, I must be looking at the wrong topic... I was looking for people's thoughts on the test session.
Pickles is online now  
Quote
Old 18 Jul 2019, 22:48 (Ref:3918409)   #70
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johno.UK View Post
The article was written by Matt James the editor of Motorsport News so I don't think knowledge is an issue seeing as he has been reporting on BTCC for as long as I can remember.


As far as I know the Infiniti runs the standard TOCA engine in the inline configuration.
The previous time it ran, it had a Swindon unit.

And given that there is no 2L engine across the Infiniti family, it's a pretty safe bet that they have to use the Swindon motor. It will be the only longitudinal in-line Swindon on the grid, so there is no crossover of turbo installation from other cars.
crmalcolm is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2019, 14:03 (Ref:3920410)   #71
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Long range forecast for the weekend at Snetterton looks "mixed".
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 1 Aug 2019, 08:33 (Ref:3920631)   #72
porsche962fan
Veteran
 
porsche962fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,426
porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
and no HARD driver replaced so far ? mark this event in your calendar
porsche962fan is offline  
Quote
Old 1 Aug 2019, 09:09 (Ref:3920634)   #73
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
What is wrong with the word ducting?

The exhaust gases that power a turbo are ducted from the cylinder to the compressor. Therefore, those components through which the turbo's power is ducted could correctly be referred to as ducting.

It may not be your choice of terminology, but it's not wrong.

Such a shame people have to incorrectly criticise an article, then get upset when they are corrected.
Funny.. I don't see where anything in a post denotes my emotional state. But hey ho assumptions again.

And everything is wrong with the word ducting if we're talking about exhaust gases... as the correct terminology is exhaust manifold. Also please explain what is incorrect in the criticism ?

I'm not the one taking conversations away from the fact that only the exhaust gases "power" a turbo.
auroan is offline  
__________________
Racing something I've built in Club level motorsports; TTRS, PBMW, City Car Cup, C1 Endurance, Compact Cup..... usually car 80.
Quote
Old 1 Aug 2019, 09:17 (Ref:3920635)   #74
auroan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
auroan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
I am not thinking of the compression air at all. At lower engine speeds the air traveling into the compressor travels at a slower rate. Depending on how that air is directed it can suffer heat soak and the air temperature rises. The turbo has to work harder to produce the same amount of boost. If the turbo is unable to work harder it will be producing less boost and the compressed air will be higher in temperature. If the intercooler is unable to get the charge air temps down. The air will be less dense and the engine will be down on power.
If the air inlet temperature to the compressor remains cold and free flowing, the air is already dense, the air can travel faster through the compressor wheel aiding the turbo to spin up easier and faster, the turbo doesn't have to work so hard, it operates at a cooler temperature, the compressed air is at a lower temperature leaving the turbo meaning the intercooler can do a better job of providing colder denser induction air.
Just because the exhaust gasses do most of the work, you would be wrong to assume they do all of it.
If you disagree try observing it on an engine dyno. Much more informative than just reading books.
Thanks for the explanation of a variable that affects the ability to generate a certain level of boost. However as you say it's just a variable. The "power" to the compressor still comes from the exhaust gas.

Anyway we're going to go round in circles with a number of people trying to steer the core discussion point away from the SINGLE issue I had with the detail in the article.

Off back to working on my race engine on the dyno and building the rest of my shell. We had a good giggle about this thread in the workshop anyway.

I'll keep quiet from now on as I obviously know nothing about what I'm talking about.

Maybe come to a race meeting and have a chat with me. Happy to discuss it after I've finished racing ;-)

Next meeting is Silverstone National on the 15th Nov
auroan is offline  
__________________
Racing something I've built in Club level motorsports; TTRS, PBMW, City Car Cup, C1 Endurance, Compact Cup..... usually car 80.
Quote
Old 1 Aug 2019, 10:25 (Ref:3920637)   #75
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Thanks for the explanation of a variable that affects the ability to generate a certain level of boost. However as you say it's just a variable. The "power" to the compressor still comes from the exhaust gas.

Anyway we're going to go round in circles with a number of people trying to steer the core discussion point away from the SINGLE issue I had with the detail in the article.

Off back to working on my race engine on the dyno and building the rest of my shell. We had a good giggle about this thread in the workshop anyway.

I'll keep quiet from now on as I obviously know nothing about what I'm talking about.

Maybe come to a race meeting and have a chat with me. Happy to discuss it after I've finished racing ;-)

Next meeting is Silverstone National on the 15th Nov
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Thruxton - Rounds 7, 8, 9 Evantra Touring Car Racing 144 29 May 2019 16:42
[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Donington Park - Rounds 4, 5, 6 Evantra Touring Car Racing 115 3 May 2019 17:21
[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Brands Hatch Indy - Rounds 1, 2, 3 Evantra Touring Car Racing 362 12 Apr 2019 21:01
[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Rounds 16, 17, 18 - Snetterton Evantra Touring Car Racing 258 11 Aug 2018 14:28
BTCC: Snetterton: Rounds 19, 20 & 21 - 28/29th July 2007 TWRv12 Touring Car Racing 27 8 Aug 2007 20:10


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.