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Old 18 Jul 2019, 08:15 (Ref:3918291)   #46
btccbloke
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Yes, but Motorbase had Fat Jackson, who is a bona fide good driver. And the Focus was a tidy motor.

Not really any comparison I think?

This may be a stupid question - could Handy/ Austin have run the car with a mother load of boost(i.e. more than they are allowed) because there is no or little scrutineeering at the test?

Ahh Mat, whatever happened to him.

As for Austin, that was exactly my point, they have turned everything up right at the end to take a bit of glory away to a potential sponsor, I know it was wet at Snetterton last year so not a fair comparison but they topped the 2018 media day times too. Its not illegal but it is highly suspect that they are often fastest in these type sessions but were nowhere all season last year.

Have they really developed the car that much without really running it? i get that they might do private sessions but I have my doubts, if they have turned it out on a trackdays i would expect we would have seen pictures already
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 08:41 (Ref:3918296)   #47
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Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Power to the turbo
You do realise the airflow to the turbo should be as free flowing and as cold as possible, otherwise it can sap the power to the turbo making it work harder. Pre compressor temperatures which are to high and reduced airflow can also cause the turbo to stall, causing fluctuations in boost pressure at lower engine speeds.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 08:44 (Ref:3918297)   #48
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 08:51 (Ref:3918298)   #49
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Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Power to the turbo
The purpose of this test for Laser Tools was to get some running out of the car, realistically for them this was a shakedown to iron out any major flaws, get some feeling for the car and understand what works and what doesnt, (they were never coming in to top the timesheets with a high boost low weight lap at the end like some ), however for a car effectively running with a turbo problem all day, they were not far off where I would expect them to be for a first timed run in the car.

This is a long project and the Infiniti will see them improve over the next 2-3 seasons by developing a car rather than running the mercedes which has reached the end of its cycle, and a learning curve switching to RWD for Aiden. I would imagine that creating a duct to the turbo would be a reasonably simple task for an experienced race engineer to sort out anyway.

Last edited by btccbloke; 18 Jul 2019 at 09:02.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 09:28 (Ref:3918304)   #50
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
You do realise the airflow to the turbo should be as free flowing and as cold as possible, otherwise it can sap the power to the turbo making it work harder. Pre compressor temperatures which are to high and reduced airflow can also cause the turbo to stall, causing fluctuations in boost pressure at lower engine speeds.
You lost credibility with that statement when you said sap power to the turbo. This is my whole point. Intake air does not "power" a turbo. The only thing that "powers" a turbo is the exhaust gases that spin up the turbine and therefore the compressor on the same spindle.

Yes heat management is very much a thing for the air being compressed, but that air does not "power" the turbo. My focual point of the autosport comment was the overly simple terminology being used which is basically wrong.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 09:30 (Ref:3918305)   #51
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Originally Posted by btccbloke View Post
The purpose of this test for Laser Tools was to get some running out of the car, realistically for them this was a shakedown to iron out any major flaws, get some feeling for the car and understand what works and what doesnt, (they were never coming in to top the timesheets with a high boost low weight lap at the end like some ), however for a car effectively running with a turbo problem all day, they were not far off where I would expect them to be for a first timed run in the car.

This is a long project and the Infiniti will see them improve over the next 2-3 seasons by developing a car rather than running the mercedes which has reached the end of its cycle, and a learning curve switching to RWD for Aiden. I would imagine that creating a duct to the turbo would be a reasonably simple task for an experienced race engineer to sort out anyway.
I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 10:33 (Ref:3918310)   #52
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Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Power to the turbo
You can't assume that readers will have a clue what the exhaust gasses have to do with compressors/waste gates or what intercoolers are. I've met racing drivers who don't know what a driveshaft is for example.

What is common knowledge to one person is voodoo to the next. Journalists have to aim for the "lowest" common denominator in the market in the main.
Of course there is always the possibility that it's a direct quote as well.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 10:38 (Ref:3918311)   #53
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Originally Posted by auroan View Post
I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.

apologies for misinterpretation
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 10:54 (Ref:3918313)   #54
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Originally Posted by auroan View Post
Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.
Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 12:04 (Ref:3918319)   #55
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You lost credibility with that statement when you said sap power to the turbo. This is my whole point. Intake air does not "power" a turbo. The only thing that "powers" a turbo is the exhaust gases that spin up the turbine and therefore the compressor on the same spindle.

Yes heat management is very much a thing for the air being compressed, but that air does not "power" the turbo. My focual point of the autosport comment was the overly simple terminology being used which is basically wrong.
Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 12:14 (Ref:3918321)   #56
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

This is a very good explanation, before criticising the way something is written, remember that the publication be it the site or in paper is read by everyone from the casual person who just occasionally watches but has no interest in mechanical information to people within the teams who were probably involved with preparing the car on the day. Often a very generic statement is understood by all without needing to be pedantic about the real nuts and bolts of a problem.

This is no different to a report saying a driver "retired with engine problems", the reader probably doesnt care that it was lets say a head gasket leak causing compression issues in the 3rd cylinder and lead to overheating and power issues, they just know that the driver is out because of an engine issue.
Autosport is not a low level technical information manual and shouldnt be read as such
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 12:44 (Ref:3918329)   #57
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Motorbase must be encourage by their times, certainly they seem to be getting better each meeting. Certainly was good to see the Alfa putting in good times, even if it was a glory run
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 16:08 (Ref:3918360)   #58
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if you look the indy standings Motorbase have been rather left behind after Donington by BTC and AMD so they really need to bounce back to have a chance

while on the overall title it's hopeless for them due to WSR steamroller
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:13 (Ref:3918362)   #59
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Old 18 Jul 2019, 17:35 (Ref:3918363)   #60
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Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.
You have all the components. But described it wrong. Air into the compressor is at atmospheric pressure or may be a little higher if you take into account the ram air effect when the vehicle is travelling forward. It may be heated a little by that but not significantly.

You are thinking of the compressed (boosted air) which is "after" the compressor. This is why we have intercoolers. To cool the compressed air before it enters the inlet manifold.

You are also thinking of compressor stall. Either way only exhaust gases "power" a turbo. If you disagree do some more reading.
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