2012 Bathurst 12 Hour - 24-26 February

[nafe!]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Tradition?...puhlease.

Build the bloody thing around commercial reality, which O'Brien is trying to do. There are only a handful of local GT guys with the coin and desire to do it, so push for more internationals. The opportunity to have a crack at overseas drivers may just drive the apathy out of the locals. So have the event when you can maximize European and Asian attendance.

And here's another thing...with the race being 70% wet, I wonder if all those proddie sooks with Evo's that cried foul about their game being hijacked realize they could have had a fat time on the weekend...top 5 for sure and bragging rights for punching above their weight. But crying and *****ing was easier.

Sheep stations, how would you react tomorrow if after very strong Australian fields despite increasing difficulties regarding the promoter but still positive talk for next years race including broadening eligibility for cars of a similar pace, gt3 cars were ditched to a class competition only and all attention was now focused on getting international's to the event and your attendance once welcomed and encouraged is now just a formality.

While i appreciate the effort teams such as the one you were involved in on the weekend, the reality was that only 5 cars were fighting for the win and bragging rights for beating a tiny field isnt exactly going to bring the better production car teams.

I agree there is a element of complaining etc, and that by actually attending they could bring the focus back to themselves more rather then having no exposure what so ever but its only part of the issue.

Its not a enjoyable position having to defend them against people with far more financial capital then they have available, the same people who at times seem to show them no respect what so ever.

I Wonder why they dont want to participate?

[Sheep Stations]

Fair dinkum, it's like herding cats sometimes on this forum. Nafe, with all due respect...garbage!

Prods were never shut out, GTs were added. Just like it is in TRADITIONAL enduros around the world, like Nurburgring, Spa, Dubai, Sepang etc etc.

The argument that prod cars got the excrement tipped end of the stick is old, boring and just wrong.

Ps. In most categories currently running around, there's generally a tight five or six that are favorites to win. Same as footy and other sports. Some are better, faster, got better gear. That's the way of the world...but every now and then the sun shines even on a dogs bum and someone from left field takes the chocolates.

Could have happened last Sunday if the toys hadn't been thrown out of the prod cot.

[davelise]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

...but every now and then the sun shines even on a wombats bum and someone from left field takes the chocolates.

Aw shucks Sheep Stations, I appreciate the kudos. Cheers.

[Axeman444]

i'm not sure i'd want any chocolate that resulted from sun shining on a dog's or a wombat's bum, but that might just be me.

[James69181]

So sheep stations, what you are saying is if there was ... say a promoter that put on a big annual race for say F2 cars and around fifty teams spent a whole lot of money building cars for their big event then the promoter decided to have F1 cars the F3 teams should cop it on the chin and continue to enter because the F1 teams can't put on more than 10 or 12 cars !!!
I guess you have a point although it is like saying ice cream shouldn't melt in the sun.
Give yourself an upper cut !!

[nafe!]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Fair dinkum, it's like herding cats sometimes on this forum. Nafe, with all due respect...garbage!

Prods were never shut out, GTs were added. Just like it is in TRADITIONAL enduros around the world, like Nurburgring, Spa, Dubai, Sepang etc etc.

The argument that prod cars got the excrement tipped end of the stick is old, boring and just wrong.

Ps. In most categories currently running around, there's generally a tight five or six that are favorites to win. Same as footy and other sports. Some are better, faster, got better gear. That's the way of the world...but every now and then the sun shines even on a dogs bum and someone from left field takes the chocolates.

Could have happened last Sunday if the toys hadn't been thrown out of the prod cot.

Lol i agree axeman...

You didnt answer this theoretical question...

"How would you react tomorrow if after very strong Australian fields of 40+ cars despite increasing difficulties regarding the promoter but still positive talk for next years race including broadening eligibility for cars of a similar pace, gt3 cars were ditched to a class competition only and all attention was now focused on getting international's to the event and your attendance once welcomed and encouraged is now just a formality"

Seriously, tell me you would continue to embrace the event, tell me that you would outlay a few hundred thousand to purchase a car that will get barely any coverage?

When previously you had maximum exposure, a chance at outright victory and could justify the race to sponsors and had a high amount of interest from drivers willing to pay to drive at the event. Tell me you wouldnt feel absolutely gutted to be blind sided like that?

Would the car owners be as accepting when cars like the lamboghini last weekend are crashed, and in one case basically written off under these new circumstances?

Is the race still justifiable if you arent rolling in cash?

And then tell me how you would feel reading comments about being a Whining loser, crying foul, should get over yourself etc by the very same team members of the category that has just relegated you to the back of the pack?

Then consider their vastly reduced budgets etc, the fact that there cars dont have as much wow factor as the gt cars and wonder just why they might be "crying foul".

I should point out that i love multiclass racing, and i love gt racing.

The tradition of large endurance races overseas is not in question, and i enjoy these events immensely when im able to view coverage of them. The simple fact is that the bathurst 12hrs was not one of these events. It for all its previous iterations was a production based event, and in recent history it was these guys who were turning up in droves and putting on a fantastic show.

In the light of things already mentioned i think its very fair when standing in their shoes to say these arguments are not garbage at all. Perhaps in some peoples eyes they will never be sufficient to justify there lack of attendance but in others its completely understandable.

[James69181]

Hey Nafe good post with the proddy car times !
The race times were even closer with great racing all through the classes.
It seems some people on this forum don't think a good number of cars racing each other is good for Australian motorsport.
While I am "at it" the proddy cars entry around $11K and international entries around $8K ! Sounds like someone is subsidising someone to me ?

[Sheep Stations]

I got about a sentence in to each of James and Nafes posts and lost interest. Your interpretations of 'what I'm saying is...'incorrect and i'm over it.

But when I saw a line that said spend a couple of hundred grand on a production car, the penny dropped. You're all mad.

[bluesport]

I'd like to see the proddies and GTs have their own events, but the GT field would be too small so I hope that the proddies get back on board (along with Aust GT) so that the event won't collapse.

[KSM86]

Have the 12 hour as part of the aus gt and proddy championship.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by racer69

How can the race be built on what is described above? They tried that this year and it didn't work. It showed potential, but the bottom line was not enough cars were there.

Wasn't the date moved this year to attract teams that had run in Dubai and Abu Dhabi? All that could be mustered was 25 starters

There needs to be a core base of competitors for the event to survive. The race is not aligned with an International GT Championship, so therefore the emphasis needs to be on getting Australians to form the bulk of the entry, with the internationals being the iceing on the cake.

It's probably worth noting the event promoter's objectives there aren't 100% connected with reality; Arab teams traditionally haven't spent a great deal of money competing abroad (exempting individual operators - e.g. Al Masood, Bin Laden - via third-party operations) in recent years.

Any European (GT3) factory-affiliate teams competing in races within the UAE have primarily attended as a result of third-party funding - local amateurs have significantly funded their presence (e.g. Bin Laden, Al Qubaisi).

They've prioritised the wrong region - at least for certain competitors.
This isn't to say it hasn't secured any competitors (e.g. United Autosports - their presence being connected to this is questionable, though). It just hasn't been a significant volume.

Our neighbouring Asian states are (or, should be) realistic targets. Malaysia, China and, potentially Japan, should have been targeted to a much greater extent. Regardless of whether the entries gained are Porsche Cup runners or, GT3 packages - there's a significant volume of runners, interested in competing elsewhere.

Clearwater is a fine (albeit likely minority) example.

Originally Posted by KSM86

Have the 12 hour as part of the aus gt and proddy championship.

This isn't such a bad idea - exempting funding issues/politics. A system similar to what's been implemented in previous years during ILMC/(A)LMS combined events seems like a pretty simple solution, in regards to classification; entries representing a specific series contingent are only classified against those competitors for scoring purposes.


As an aside, I really enjoyed this year's event. Less rain, more competitors would have significantly added to the race. I enjoyed the event, regardless.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I got about a sentence in to each of James and Nafes posts and lost interest. Your interpretations of 'what I'm saying is...'incorrect and i'm over it. .

The problem is the perception of what you are saying SS.
And the perception among the prody people is that the organiser has tried to move the race upscale and has either taken the prodys for granted, or has given them the brush off. That hasn't been helped by people talking down to them and trying to write them off as a bunch of whingers.
AND OF COURSE THEY RE-ACTED AS YOU WOULD EXPECT TO HOW THEY CONSIDERED THEY WERE BEING TREATED!
You are right about the major Euro and middle east enduros being class based races, and are enjoyable for being so, but a "production" car in VLN is not the same thing as our production rules and there would have to be a meeting of minds between the Showroom Series Prod enthusiasts and those wanting to do enduros.
It would seem very unlikely that there is a big enough core of Australian GT3 entrants willing to spend the necessary to run the 12hr. Even topping them up with International entries would probably top out at 25/30 cars.
Thus there is a need to attract around 30 Production type Enduro cars to make the race a true spectacle. And of course they would have to be capable of something like a 2:42 to ensure they fitted the 130% rule and got a start. That alone rules out many potential entrants.
It is in the interests of both GT3 and the prodies to come up with a suitable compromise so that both can get things out of the race.
That isn't going to happen trash talking the other side.
By the way, I thought it was a great race. The Bella Rosso, Black Falcon, JBS and Audi dice early was memorable to watch and hear. Similarly the SEAT v HSV deisel torque v V8 power was interesting. Just needed more cars.
Watching Mr Tinkler enjoy himself and put in a competent stint made me think why doesn't he ditch the A League and NRL and use the time and money on something he is really involved in and enjoying?

[Belly13]

The worry for me personally was that there were actually less gt cars this year than there was last year. I do agree with earlier comments about 2013 being a make or break year for the race. I seriously hope that the event remains on the Australian Motorsport calendar for years to come.
I had great weekend at the track. The lack of entries was a concern but the drivers and quality of the teams which did enter were excellent. I'll be back next year but I fear that 2013 will be the last year for the race if entries do not improve on this year's efforts.

[peckstar]

might be lucky the race wasn't this weekend, the main road back to sydney is cut due to flooding in the town

[D.R.T.]

Having the GT category has helped in terms of event awareness/ media interest in terms of Audi, Simonsen's record etc

This is no disrespect to the production category but this interest/storylines werent experienced from 2007 - 2010. As much as we want to talk grids numbers (& yes we need more than 25/30 cars) this wasnt the deal breaker for the promoter.

The event has had manufacturer support with Subaru, Holden and Mitsubishi but I would say they didnt leverage the event in the same way that Audi has.

For concerns about coverage of the class cars, the Astra seemed to do okay in terms of coverage.

If GT3 is superseeded for example by GTE, I would imagine GT3 competitors would be allowed to race for class and outright honours. No different to whats happened with the production cars. They invested in the cars - why not race them at Australia's best track.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I got about a sentence in to each of James and Nafes posts and lost interest. Your interpretations of 'what I'm saying is...'incorrect and i'm over it.

But when I saw a line that said spend a couple of hundred grand on a production car, the penny dropped. You're all mad.

Have you built a top running production car? because I know people who have spent more than that on building a historic touring cars..

[KSM86]

Hallo Adam

In case we find some money, we will come back to Bathurst.

It is the 2nd best track of this planet!!

We also love the Australian people. Australia is the best place to live in!!

My daughter will give you the Info tomorrow.

Best regards and have a nice weekend

Jürgen






Jürgen Alzen Motorsport

Gewerbepark 12

57518 Betzdorf

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by St00ge

Have you built a top running production car? because I know people who have spent more than that on building a historic touring cars..

so?

that's does not make it right or a good idea.

I would love to have done the 12 hour, but the costs were just stupidly high, (as in entry fee alone way higher than most 24H races round the planet).

then they did the tyre and fuel deals which effectively put up the costs even more (and also significantly disadvantaged cars not well catered for by the nominated tyre co).

I am sure most of the Prodsports guys would love to have a crack at it too, but that one event would cost them more than their entire seasons budget and then some.

If the organisers want this event to work, they need to get the costs down, cut the fuel and tyre deals, and get the numbers up.

(it would also help is they figured out how to rent the fuel rigs for the event, this is a significant cost that most people can ill afford to buy for 1 event).

[St00ge]

im talking about costs of building a car not to enter or running in the event, that's all extra costs associated with racing..... I agree they need to keep those costs low, but there ain't no cheap way to build a top running car in any category in my experience....

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by St00ge

im talking about costs of building a car not to enter or running in the event, that's all extra costs associated with racing..... I agree they need to keep those costs low, but there ain't no cheap way to build a top running car in any category in my experience....

that's more a matter of the regs/category I would suggest.

yes, it's always possible to spend money on a car, it's not mandatory.

Front-running prodsports (2B) cars don't have to cost the earth to build or run.

the problem is though, the cost to run one for the 12 hour is approaching the build cost of the cars!

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

so?

that's does not make it right or a good idea.

I would love to have done the 12 hour, but the costs were just stupidly high, (as in entry fee alone way higher than most 24H races round the planet).

then they did the tyre and fuel deals which effectively put up the costs even more (and also significantly disadvantaged cars not well catered for by the nominated tyre co).

I am sure most of the Prodsports guys would love to have a crack at it too, but that one event would cost them more than their entire seasons budget and then some.

If the organisers want this event to work, they need to get the costs down, cut the fuel and tyre deals, and get the numbers up.

(it would also help is they figured out how to rent the fuel rigs for the event, this is a significant cost that most people can ill afford to buy for 1 event).

Close to getting it right-- it is hard to describe all the issues to getting big field.
If promoter insists on pitching to ONLY high end competitors then it will fail as an event.It is fundamentally the same flaw Aus Gt has fallen for over a period of time.
The successfull overseas ( success in numerical support) with events like Nurgurgring 24 hour benchmark is that it is accessible to all levels and they are encouraged.It is the rank and file that can make it a success-- not one or two factory supported teams--they will never lead to a success-- but they will always want to be part of a SUCCESSFULL event.
FWIW-- I am not talking about sedans!!-- my specific bias is in GT/Sportscars -- but I do support the idea of classes in general.

[GTRMagic]

If the rules went back to timed pitstops, the need for the ultra fast fuel rigs and high power air guns goes away...

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

Front-running prodsports (2B) cars don't have to cost the earth to build or run.

When was the last time you were at a prod sports event?

The front running cars include Iain Pretty's GT40 replica, a couple of very fast Elise's, a handful of GT3 Porsche's, a sprinkling of ex GT cars, oh and Ted's Lamborghini last year. All very expensive cars to build, maintain and run.

I'd say at least a quarter of our field are $100K + cars. With a couple in the multiple hundred thousands!

[alfacors]

I believe Simon has piloted one of those very fast Elises before shane

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

the problem is though, the cost to run one for the 12 hour is approaching the build cost of the cars!

I didn't realise you could build a front running prod sports car for $10-20K...

I must be doing it wrong