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Old 28 May 2014, 19:36 (Ref:3412004)   #1
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FIA Formula 2 to return?

Here's the Autosport article.

Basically, Gerhard Berger wants a replacement for GP2 with full FIA control, and wants everyone else out.

Apart from the issues that ther FIA championships have had, he misses the point that junior formula championships aren't just F1 feeders. Sports car and touring car championships like FIA WEC, Blancpain, DTM and BTCC also need feeder formula to get the best drivers. By killing most branches of the ladde, driver development is killed too.
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Old 28 May 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3412008)   #2
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Hopefully we can see a return of multi make racing. But I wasn't happy with what he's done to British F3
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Old 28 May 2014, 20:22 (Ref:3412049)   #3
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This was always the plan, remember? It's in the FIA's to do list, after F4 I guess.
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Old 29 May 2014, 05:50 (Ref:3412182)   #4
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I tend to agree with Berger. Why do we need both WSR3.5 and GP2. Surely just having one strong championship would be better?

From what he said in the article the FIA has no intention of starting a 3rd championship at this level, but rather they want to take a bit more control of either WSR or GP2 and then trying to kill off the other one.

Would also fix the problems with F3 as drivers who couldn't crack the GP2/WSR would stay in F3 longer.
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Old 29 May 2014, 07:43 (Ref:3412210)   #5
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I actually changed my opinion halfway through reading this thread. While I agree that killing off other arms of the ladder might hinder some development, it means that as Aguri said, it might stop some drivers moving up too quickly. Also, those that don't get the top single seater drives may choose to move off to sportscars or the US etc, so the level of ability in those championships shouldn't be hindered too much I wouldn't imagine. The only major problem I foresee is that if there is only a limited amount of seats that those with the big cheques from foreign oil companies will still get the seat over a junior champion that can't quite get the budget together.
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Old 29 May 2014, 10:16 (Ref:3412262)   #6
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I tend to agree with Berger. Why do we need both WSR3.5 and GP2. Surely just having one strong championship would be better?

From what he said in the article the FIA has no intention of starting a 3rd championship at this level, but rather they want to take a bit more control of either WSR or GP2 and then trying to kill off the other one.

Would also fix the problems with F3 as drivers who couldn't crack the GP2/WSR would stay in F3 longer.
Having one championship would be much worse for the young drivers themselves.
Currently GP2 is (roughly) 2.5m euros per year right?
So anyone who doesn't have that still has the possibility of doing FR3.5 instead.
But, if FR3.5 was killed off, GP2 prices would rise (as they'd have no competitor as a reason to keep them lower) and also drivers who couldn't afford the GP2 prices would go... where?
Nowhere. F1 dream over.

How is that 'better'?
There needs to be as many series as possible.
For the consumer (either you and me doing our shopping for various things we need/want AND for young drivers trying to get to the top) there needs to be as much variety of choice as possible.
Monopoly leads to inevitable price rises and kills the market.
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Old 29 May 2014, 10:46 (Ref:3412270)   #7
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I think there is an argument for competition between series at each level. It stops the teams / series / tracks / organisers from being too complacent and makes them work a bit harder for their money.

However the further down the motorsport pyramid you go the more competing classes there are and then that becomes bad because there is too much choice resulting in low numbers in each category, with the best drivers not being pushed as hard as they could be, which could be to the detriment of a drivers career if he's not pushed as hard as he could have been with more competition.
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Old 29 May 2014, 10:59 (Ref:3412272)   #8
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I see the arguments for and against.

My main beef, that struck hard during Monaco (Where both GP2 and WSR run) was 'How do we know who's any good anymore?'

GP2's Pirelli tyres and reverse grids rubbish makes it hard to call. For instance, I don't rate Palmer or Richellmi, yet they won the most decorated races of the season.

So then we have WSR, the formula is good, but how do we know how strong the field really is?

It's a simplistic view that overlooks alot of logistics/numbers, but surely this process needs to start with the question "What do we want our junior formulae's purpose to be?"
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Old 29 May 2014, 21:36 (Ref:3412523)   #9
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Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That's why I have several (insert feeder series here) Two Worlds Prediction Competitions, one about GP2 and other about FR 3.5. In fact, if FIA strengths a main F1 feeder series and will be only one, then it will be only one (Formula 2) Two Worlds Prediction Competition. We'll see then.
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Old 29 May 2014, 21:40 (Ref:3412527)   #10
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Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
BTW, is needed another chassis supplier alongside Dallara to spice up things. Hopefully Lola could be resurrected with that purpose, or Tatuus, or any other.
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Old 30 May 2014, 03:02 (Ref:3412580)   #11
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Having one championship would be much worse for the young drivers themselves.
Currently GP2 is (roughly) 2.5m euros per year right?
So anyone who doesn't have that still has the possibility of doing FR3.5 instead.
But, if FR3.5 was killed off, GP2 prices would rise (as they'd have no competitor as a reason to keep them lower) and also drivers who couldn't afford the GP2 prices would go... where?
Nowhere. F1 dream over.

How is that 'better'?
There needs to be as many series as possible.
For the consumer (either you and me doing our shopping for various things we need/want AND for young drivers trying to get to the top) there needs to be as much variety of choice as possible.
Monopoly leads to inevitable price rises and kills the market.
Again Berger alludes to this in the article. GP2 is a business run to make money, WSR3.5 is an large scale advertising campaign for Renault.

This is presumably why FIA wants to get involved in the first place - so they can use their influence to manage special interest and ensure a reasonably priced championship with the best drivers involved.

There is significant scope to reduce cost through scale by having multipul series across different countries using the same cars. It also makes it easier for teams and drivers to move to different championships as skill level progresses. Granted this doesn't apply so much to the tier bellow F1, but it does explain the rational behind the FIA's decisions regarding F3 and F4.

If a series gets too expensive the FIA simply imposes maximum cost controls.
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Old 30 May 2014, 04:44 (Ref:3412587)   #12
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Ideally, F4 should be regional championships and F3 should be the national championships.

WSR should be the continental championships. There should be championships in Europe, Asia, South America, North America...etc.

GP2 should be the direct feeder and support race of F1.

That would be my ideal, but it is never simple as that.
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Old 30 May 2014, 05:38 (Ref:3412590)   #13
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racing reminds me of boxing, way too many weight classes and way to many belts. in racing there are way too many junior formula and way too many championships. for the sake of the sport, there needs to be a streamlined ladder to F1, and common regulations worldwide. this is why F4 is such an important formula. from karting to F3, the fia is trying to make F4 the global standard. if F4 turns out to be successful, there may be hope for a future united F2...
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Old 30 May 2014, 08:02 (Ref:3412612)   #14
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When considering this question I always start from "why isn't it how things were in the 80s". Oversubscribed F1 grids, an F2/3000 with both international and national series, then down through F3, FFord etc. What was ever wrong with that?
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Old 30 May 2014, 08:13 (Ref:3412616)   #15
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When considering this question I always start from "why isn't it how things were in the 80s". Oversubscribed F1 grids, an F2/3000 with both international and national series, then down through F3, FFord etc. What was ever wrong with that?
Great for enthusiasts and drivers but maybe teams weren't making enough money!

There's always been arguments about costs though as generally it's all been relative to inflation. Plus there was all the fag money as well. Nowadays there is lwss available sponsorship for budgets that are too high.

It would make sense to start rationalising the various series by the FIA though.
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Old 30 May 2014, 10:39 (Ref:3412652)   #16
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The problem with getting someone else to make a rival chassis is persuading the teams to jump ship - stick with the proven cars or risk it all on a gamble.

That would probably mean giving teams chassis, and it would be the teams towards the back of the field who have least to risk that would accept, and those teams may be towards the back of the field for good reason, and simply changing chassis wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
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Old 30 May 2014, 13:25 (Ref:3412692)   #17
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Berger says "there's too many championships, we should kill FR3.5 and GP2 like we did with national F3 championships". That's like saying "there's too many formula drivers around". People want to drive, they shouldn't be forced out just because FIA wants a limited number of championships.
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Old 30 May 2014, 15:12 (Ref:3412732)   #18
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That's generally where sports cars, touring cars, etc come in.

The problem with Berger is, as noted, he doesn't seem to care about the costs of any categories other than F4, which would lead to an increase in "pay drivers" compared to drivers who "earn" their seats. Also, you cannot have a Formula 2 grid with 45 cars on it. FR3.5 and GP2 almost need to co-exist because F1 has a grid cap and as a result we see so many deserving drivers without drives. Whilst this is beneficial for touring cars and sports cars especially, surely in 20 years time we'll have the head of the WTCC and WEC grid just as good as almost all of the F1 grid. I'd say this is already starting to happen...
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Old 31 May 2014, 04:38 (Ref:3413016)   #19
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Berger says "there's too many championships, we should kill FR3.5 and GP2 like we did with national F3 championships". That's like saying "there's too many formula drivers around". People want to drive, they shouldn't be forced out just because FIA wants a limited number of championships.
limited number of "premiere" championships. at each level of racing, there should be only one championship that matters. on the bottom end, F4 is trying to do just that. however, GP2 and FR3.5 have split the talent at the F2 level.
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Old 31 May 2014, 05:55 (Ref:3413027)   #20
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Berger says "there's too many championships, we should kill FR3.5 and GP2 like we did with national F3 championships". That's like saying "there's too many formula drivers around". People want to drive, they shouldn't be forced out just because FIA wants a limited number of championships.
He's not saying we should kill both. He's saying kill one and instead just have one premier open wheel series bellow F1 (and WEC, INDY, Super Formula).

If people want to drive they should drive national F3 or F4. If they are good enough they will make it to F3 euro and GP2/WSR. What we have now with new series, new cars, often 1/2 or 3/4 full grids is a huge waste of time and money.

No ones sure who the best drivers are because we simply cannot compare accurately between different series and different teams.
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Old 31 May 2014, 15:48 (Ref:3413194)   #21
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I think it's pretty easy to see who are the best drivers in FR3.5 & GP2. Using this logic, we should have only one F4, one F3 and one F2 championships.
If you're not sure who they are, then put them in your sim and you'll see.
Having a Formula 2 championship will be good, but the only reason is because of the name.
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Old 31 May 2014, 18:37 (Ref:3413289)   #22
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i've always felt that F2 should be more like indycar in that you can make a career out of driving at that level. with such limited F1 seats, the F2 level should be a premiere european series with top talent, top teams, and major sponsors. instead GP2 and FR3.5 are both feeder series where drivers come and go trying to make it into F1.
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Old 31 May 2014, 23:10 (Ref:3413394)   #23
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I think it's pretty easy to see who are the best drivers in FR3.5 & GP2.
I'm not sure I agree. With the artificial addition of reverse grid races you do get races that guys just would not have won without the prized eighth place finish!
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Old 31 May 2014, 23:31 (Ref:3413399)   #24
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I'm not sure I agree. With the artificial addition of reverse grid races you do get races that guys just would not have won without the prized eighth place finish!
Sure, there are some guys who don't deserve to win but you still know the drivers that do deserve to win. Personally, I don't think this years GP2 grid is very talented with the exception of Vandoorne and Marciello. FR3.5 has a great grid though.
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Old 1 Jun 2014, 01:21 (Ref:3413426)   #25
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i've always felt that F2 should be more like indycar in that you can make a career out of driving at that level. with such limited F1 seats, the F2 level should be a premiere european series with top talent, top teams, and major sponsors. instead GP2 and FR3.5 are both feeder series where drivers come and go trying to make it into F1.
I agree, it would be nice to see the next step down from formula 1 focus on doing all the things a great formula series can do that F1 can't or won't do, like ovals and some of the classic tracks that are no longer approved for F1, and having some variety in the cars.
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