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Old 4 Jul 2003, 20:52 (Ref:652783)   #1
vaughan jones
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vaughan jones should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
warming up lap

at a race meeting recently, the pole man led up the warming up lap, then slowed down, almost bought the grid to standstill on the first straight,again on a slow corner before the start, is the way it is done, i thought it was called a warming up, to get heat into tyres/brakes etc. not a slowing down lap. I would be interested for any views?
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Old 4 Jul 2003, 21:08 (Ref:652806)   #2
Muz
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Muz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
When your on pole you dont want to get back onto the grid and sit there waiting for a few minutes whilst everyone else catches up and stops on their grid positions due to the fact that your tyres / brakes cool and the engine heats up. Therefore by bunching the field up on the warm up lap you minimise this affect.

In addition it gives you a bit of control over the pack by forcing them to follow your speed and bunching them up(a small pschycological advantage).

Not sure how many races you have competed in? But also the warm up lap is not something that you compete at race speed, you can generate more heat in the tyres and brakes by bursts of acceleration and hard braking. In addition I tend to trail the brake whilst accelerating from the last corner to the grid. This then means that your brakes are as close to racing temperature as possible come the first corner.

Hope this helps!!
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Old 4 Jul 2003, 21:52 (Ref:652861)   #3
vaughan jones
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vaughan jones should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Muz, thanks for the reply, i competed in about 85-90 races,i was interested in control the bit,do you not feel if you drive at walking pace your tyr/brakes etc will never get hot, i only raced on large slicks, it was 100% important try to get as much heat in those as poss. Do you feel people make to much the attempt to gain a pschyclogical advantage at the risk of bunching up the grid , if the leader leads the field at a steady pace they all get there together, i drove a pace car for series,my brief was to lead the grid at steady pace, towards the last corner slow to let them bunch together for the start, not slow done and accelerate rwo, three times to wind everyone up?
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Old 5 Jul 2003, 00:34 (Ref:652980)   #4
Muz
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Muz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
cant comment on your experience, but my first ever pole position and I thought 'im not going to mess around like the other guys when they're on pole (stopping and starting)' when I came to the last corner I was crawling along to try and let the field bunch up but it had simply spread out to much. After the race, my team manager explained his theory of the warm up lap which pretty much follows my first post.

You can get the tyres/brakes up to temperature without driving at full racing speed. I tend to bunch the field halfway round and then again before the last corner.

Just my opinion, it seems to work for me and I have had several races whereby I make a good lead on the first lap. I believe that I have confidence during the first few corners because I know that my tyres/brakes are nearly up to optimum temperature and I havent been at a standstill for several minutes waiting for the field to line up.

Its not trying to wind people up - just a strategy that I think works.
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Old 5 Jul 2003, 19:20 (Ref:653526)   #5
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graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
hi vaughan, that does sound like a strange warm up lap, me i dont care what they do as long as they do it at a reasonable speed as i always need to left foot brake the warm up to try and get a senasble amount of heat into the brakes.
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Old 5 Jul 2003, 20:03 (Ref:653550)   #6
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I have never been highter than 4th on the grid but I always slow on the last corner so I don't have to wait to long while the rest of the grid lines up. Accelerating and stabbing the brakes for short bursts does virtualy nothing to heat the brakes up, better to gently left foot brake whilst still on the gas.
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Old 6 Jul 2003, 20:08 (Ref:654154)   #7
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graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
i agree with falcemob its far better to left foot brake all the way round the circuit than to stab the brakes, i can't see that weaving around actually does anything to heat the tyres, i do it a little but only to check the "feel" of the steering
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Old 6 Jul 2003, 20:12 (Ref:654158)   #8
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Muz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Left foot braking to generate heat is fine, however you do not need more than 100m of this, certainly not around the whole warm up lap as it will cook them! Also this does nothing to generate heat in the tyres.
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Old 6 Jul 2003, 20:19 (Ref:654163)   #9
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Muz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Tyre heat is generated via two principals -

Direction change (weaving) and velocity change (accelerating and braking).

I wouldnt wish to impose my 'views' on anyone via this forum, however im not quite sure how this can really be disputed? After all do you not think that if there was a more efficent way then the F1 guys would be doing it? However if you saw todays race then you will notice that they all weaved, accelerated and then braked aggressively throughout the warm up lap.

More heat is generated via tyre slippage across the surface of a track than the actual cornering force. Weaving = understeer, which = slippage, which = heat. Acceleration and breaking both = slippage, which = heat.
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Old 6 Jul 2003, 20:40 (Ref:654177)   #10
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I can't argue with the tyre warm up theory as I am not an expert. I just know from experieince that short bursts on brakes don't heat them as much as holding on for a long time. Agreed, you dont need to left foot brake for an entire lap, and i didnt mean that long.
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Old 6 Jul 2003, 21:04 (Ref:654189)   #11
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Sorry if I misunderstood you falcemob
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Old 7 Jul 2003, 11:25 (Ref:654666)   #12
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Yep, not too sure on the actual benefits of the weaving part. I can't imagine it does that much especially as most people tend to do the weaving at lower spends which means the tyres are not scrubbing across the surface as much.
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Old 8 Jul 2003, 06:15 (Ref:655511)   #13
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Irv the Swerve should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I tend to left foot it on the warm up lap too, and I weave but I think the real scrubbing comes from backing off before a corner and going hard through it, getting a bit of a slide.
As far the pole man backing up the field by going slowly - i never got that. I don't see how anyone can be put offs psychologically by having the guy in front go slow on the warm up lap.
Then again, I am completely useless!
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Old 8 Jul 2003, 12:33 (Ref:655754)   #14
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shiny side up! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It is frustrating to have to slow to a chug behind the lead car... remember Montoya's gesturing to TGF earlier this year at the end of a safety car period?? (Sorry, I forget which GP it was...). He pulled right up next to a crawlingly slow TGF and made it clear that he wasn't too happy with the way the restart was going...
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Old 9 Jul 2003, 08:07 (Ref:656587)   #15
Warwick
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Warwick should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We dont waste our time weaving (250 Superkart) as we found it made no difference to the level of grip available,and I've actually seen people fall off the track on warm up laps trying it.

Saw a very interesting article done by a bike mag,where they did a whole bunch of testing simulating a warm up lap,weaving,tyre warmers,leaving them lying in the sun and the conclusion was if you're not using tyre warmers then you are wasting your time as nothing else generated a useful temperature increase.

I'm not sure on the procedure for gridding up cars,but some bike guys no matter there grid draw try and leave the pits behind everyone else,go hard out on the warm up lap and try to time it so they take there grid position with the least delay till flag fall,so there is less time for the tyres,brakes to start cooling down
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Old 9 Jul 2003, 09:34 (Ref:656668)   #16
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I'm driving a front wheel drive touring car. Weaving is very important since it is hard to get rear tires warmed up. Fronts are easily warmed up by accellerating and braking. I also adjust the brake balance to full rear and left foot brake when entering corners during the warm up lap - with caution ofcourse... wouldn't want to spin on warm up lap This means that rear tires generate heat from braking also in addition to sideways sliding. Just have to remember to readjust brake balance before grid or there will be lots of show in the first corner.

Maybe strongest opinion I remember was from Carroll Smith in his books where he said that weaving is unnecessary and humiliating. Well, at least for FWD cars it is absolutely crucial.
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Old 9 Jul 2003, 11:05 (Ref:656736)   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Warwick
Saw a very interesting article done by a bike mag,where they did a whole bunch of testing simulating a warm up lap,weaving,tyre warmers,leaving them lying in the sun and the conclusion was if you're not using tyre warmers then you are wasting your time as nothing else generated a useful temperature increase.
Weaving has been shown to actually cool bike tyres down if tyre warmers have been used. Unlike car tyres, the whole width of a bike tyre's tread is not in contact with the track surface. By keeping the bike more or less upright, all the work done by the tyre is concentrated in the central portion of the tread, which helps keep it up to temperature. Weaving brings more of the tread into contact with the relatively cool track for short periods of time; the heat lost by contact with the track is more than the heat generated by weaving.

When it comes to cars, as an engineer I'm sceptical about just how much heat can be got into tyres at warm-up speeds - I suspect such little bit of heat that weaving can generate is lost while the car is waiting on the grid. As a marshal I'm aware of the inherent dangers in weaving.....but, they have seen it in the telly, so it must be the right thing to do!
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Old 9 Jul 2003, 13:05 (Ref:656838)   #18
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Stacy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridStacy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Re: warming up lap

Quote:
Originally posted by vaughan jones
I would be interested for any views?
I can only speak for the racing done on our tyres which are treaded, but usually take a lap or two to get up to temperature.

When on pole I tend to do the following;

1. On the green flag I do a practice start and tend to put some rubber down. I then line up on this rubber when we come back to the grid.

2. I accelerate up through the gears until turn 1, so I know what speed I will arrived at turn 1 in from a standing start in the race. This hopefully gives me a more accurate indication of the revised braking point.

3. I then left foot brake to try and take the edge of the brakes, but even with my fairly substantial set up they will work from (almost) cold, so don't need a lot.

4. I don't weave. I think it's a waste of time and has such a negligible effect on tyre temps so as not to be worth it - unless you're trying to suss out a rattle.. Instead, I tend to look at the track and see if I can see where the rubbish has been thrown up from previous races, any oil patches from some of the sheds we share a track with and so forth.

5. As we approach the final corner I will slow the pack down and bunch it together. It's not playing games, it's more that we have a wide variety of machinery and drivers of differing paces, and I don't want to be sat on the grid watching them bumbling about in my mirror for 10 minutes. We then hopefully sit on the grid for a short period of time, then off we go..

Cheers

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Old 9 Jul 2003, 20:43 (Ref:657326)   #19
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Anything you can do to get temperature into slicks is a good idea. Deforming the carcass by weaving, braking and accelerating and slipping the rubber against the road surface starts the process, but the opening few corners in the race quickly winds things up.
And show the buggers alongside or behind YOU ARE up to temperature.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 07:49 (Ref:657622)   #20
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Ok so now we need some of you guys to go the track,take a pyro with you and do a comparison on your tyre temps before you leave the pits,one warm up weaving,check tyre temps,cool down period,check temps one lap not weaving check temps again.

I personally think it is a waste of time and my warm up would be similar to Stacy,but at the end of day its whatever works for you.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 08:06 (Ref:657636)   #21
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Stacy and I run on treaded race tyres so he was referring to that circumstance. Slicks I believe, behave differently so GFM's point may be more valid under those circs.

I do try and weave a bit but I'm not sure if it does any good. I'm generally more concerned with heating brakes up etc.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 11:13 (Ref:657769)   #22
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I know from my (relatively modest) experience that weaving really makes a difference on back end grip for my Alfa 156 on SLICK tyres.

I have tried also do with less weaving action and the car is really loose during the first couple of corners. Weaving doesn't generate optimal temperature on the rears but neither does one racing speed lap. Yet, it gives just enough grip to survive couple of first corners.

And after I figured out to use brake balance for further stress on rears during warm up lap( or actually we are driving 2 warm up laps here) the grip has been good enough unless the air temperature is really low. It really is very important when taking first corners and reacting to things happening in front of you. My car has lots of lift-off oversteer and it will spin if I suddenly have to change the direction or brake during cornering with cold rear tyres.
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Old 14 Jul 2003, 00:57 (Ref:660359)   #23
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Red Dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Slick tyres, light car, low power, RWD
My best method is to spin the wheels off the line, left foot brake against the throttle on the straights until the brakes 'come in'( half a lap normally), and rather than weaving, which seems to do very little, I exaggerate each corner by taking an inside line then turning late and hard to get understeer and getting the tail out on the exit using the throttle. The bunching at the last corner is essential on really hot days but if I ever had to wait 10 mins my engine would overheat - 2-3 mins would be about it. One of the problems with slicks is that you almost always have pickup after practice and you have to at least clean that off on the green flag lap.
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