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Old 13 Apr 2004, 12:01 (Ref:938188)   #1
dave_fricker
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dave_fricker should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Marshalling.

I know that this is a little bit of a contentious issue, and THIS IS NOT to be used as a forum to ***** about marshals. Without marshals there is no Motorsport and it’s through their dedication and hard work that thousand of people every weekend have fun. However I have not been racing for eighteen months and to me it seems that the standard of marshalling at certain circuits has declined since I raced last.

The reason I say this is because I recently attended a race meeting and in two different instances accidents that were OBVIOSLY red flags took up-to two laps to be called (both times cars stationary in the middle of corners).

Why is this happening or is this just an unfortunate ‘one off’???

Dave Fricker
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Old 13 Apr 2004, 12:28 (Ref:938229)   #2
jase
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Best thing is to post this question in the marshals forum
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Old 13 Apr 2004, 12:33 (Ref:938240)   #3
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just a point......it isnt just the marshals decide to put out red flags......the observers have to radio through to race control to aswk for a red flag.....it could indeed be the clerk of the course who is late in their decision or decide not to put it out at all....the marshals usually know whether they want a red flag or not straight away but race control sometimes take a bit longer in their decision and may prefer to run the race under waved yellows......if the black and yellow was still available then that would probably be used.

hope this helps

Last edited by ascarracinguk; 13 Apr 2004 at 12:35.
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Old 14 Apr 2004, 18:36 (Ref:939703)   #4
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andrew_powell98 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In my opinion if there are a "shortage" of marshals and an incident occurs on or very close to the racing line that marshals could not attend to then the safety of both Marshals and Drivers need to be delt with. If we still had the Yellow and black we may be able to deal with it, but now that has gone the observer is left with the decison to request a red and wait and see what Race Control decide to do. Safety must always come first and if a red is needed so be it, but we also need to deal with an incident as quick and safely as possible.
The problem is recruiting new marshals and keeping them. There are not the numbers comming through but who knows this year we may get more.
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Old 14 Apr 2004, 20:45 (Ref:939797)   #5
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Dave you get used to this at Castle Combe for some reason they are to slow with the red flags,lucky no one got hurt.This was not just a "one off" incident.
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Old 14 Apr 2004, 20:55 (Ref:939804)   #6
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jad/dave as ascar has quite correctly stated, the decision on whether (or not) to use a red flag is with the organisers. Marshals do not put out the red flag until it's put out on the start/finish.

In fairness, we won't ask for a red unless we've no other choice, but it doesn't usually take very long to determine if we need one. However, once requested, it's the COC's decision.
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Old 14 Apr 2004, 21:38 (Ref:939852)   #7
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quite simple really it is upto the clerk of the course to put a red out not the marshals although i will say i think the quality is not what it used to be mainly due to relying on snatch vehicles etc too much
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Old 14 Apr 2004, 23:14 (Ref:939920)   #8
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Yeah, if you look at the marshals at the incident you'll probably see them shouting for a red in those circumstances, soesn't mean you're going to get one, though, entirely at the discretion of 'them upstairs'
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 07:59 (Ref:940135)   #9
Stephen Green
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An interesting post Dave.

Lets say there are several reasons why your observation may be close to the truth.

First of all we (the BMMC and other clubs) are trying our hardest to recruit new marshals not only to bolster falling numbers, but also to help replace those who retire from the sport. The average agfe of marshals has been rising for some years which in itself tells a story. Obviously if we are successful in recruiting new marshals then there is a period of training that has to be undertaken before they reach the very high standards set by us 'old hands'. This training is largely done 'on post' and so as with any training, some mistakes are bound to happen.

With regard to the red flag, the previous posters have covered that. It is the decision of the Clerk of the Course whether a red flag is shown. The Observer or senior marshal on post can request one, but the decision is then taken by Race Control. They may prefer to try and move cars under yellow flag conditions or, they may prefer to deploy a Safety Car. Whatever their decision, it should be taken with the marshals and drivers safety uppermost in their mind.

At the moment I'm struggling to think how we can use drivers to help recruit new marshals but when I have a few ideas I assure you they will be posted here. If we can all work together as a team, then we should be able to get marshals numbers back to acceptable levels in the not too distant future.

I hope this and the other posts have helped to explain the situation as it currently stands?

Stephen.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 09:25 (Ref:940200)   #10
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SPEAKING PERSONALLY. I always take a request for a red flag very seriously. If a driver is trapped or unable to vacate the car, needs urgent medical treatment or, say, there is a fire, I would not hesitate to 'go red'. The only time I might delay (or turn down) a request, is when a car (or cars) are in a dangerous position (without drivers) but the track is not blocked and can be covered with yellow flags. This is much more likely when there are only 1 or 2 laps (or minutes) to go in order to get a result rather than a re-start and is an easier decision when there are cameras. Timetables these days are always tight and red flags/restarts lose a lot of time but we should never compromise safety.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 09:27 (Ref:940202)   #11
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All the information has to be given to race control for them to reach a correct decision. It is easier when you have cctv screens to see an incident and make the right decision. If you have no cctv in race control you have to take stock of the infomation given. Some red flag situations are marginal in there decisions it can lead to a human error, no one is infallible unfortunatly.
Drivers can help by slowing more at an incident, but each situation is different.
It is the accesment of the information that may cause the delay described.
I am sure that drivers could be allowed in race control so they can see for themselves how it works, we as marshals need to take advice from drivers to make these situations less common.
hope these thoughts can help.

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Old 15 Apr 2004, 11:20 (Ref:940317)   #12
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I guess there's no winning sometimes. When reds are rare we get complaints, when they appear more often we also receive complaints that races are stopped too often!
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 14:01 (Ref:940491)   #13
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Sometimes there may be a wait & see approach, if the drivers obey they flags & slow down the incident could be dealt with without the need for a red. Also if you are short of marshals you may need to wait for extra hands to arrive & it may look like you are doing nowt.
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 16:27 (Ref:940616)   #14
dave_fricker
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Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and I'm glad the discussion went the way I intended!

I for one have learnt more about the marshalling process. Hopefully we can all work towards a solution to this problem. I was a fan of the safety car and think that it certainly would have been a useful tool at Coombe last weekend.

As for the drivers, we do need to take more heed of flag signals and stiff penalties should be applied to people who use yellows as a racing advantage.

Whatever is done, as it was quite rightly pointed out, will not please everyone.

Keep up the good work!

Dave
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 16:43 (Ref:940633)   #15
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I forgot to say thanks to the two Marshals that helped me with my little smoky situation at the end of the Coombe race. One well cooked engine!!

Cheers
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 17:23 (Ref:940679)   #16
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Thank you Dave for the understanding you have shown, we need to work together to help the sport we love and become more enjoyable for both driver and Marshal.
Hope you will be out soon.

Regards
Pete
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Old 15 Apr 2004, 17:47 (Ref:940717)   #17
peter195001
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peter195001 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
sometimes I just think we are there to write reports, (part time obs) other times we move cars during sessions.

it all comes down to the obsever,the club and number of personal( careful choice for words)
but more importent SAFETY.......
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