Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17 Sep 2021, 02:13 (Ref:4074297)   #256
Taxi645
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 634
Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTaxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
I'm not sure this is actually correct. In a recent controversy the FIA felt the need to explain more about how the stewarding works. In this explanation it was indicated that the stewards have at their disposal, at a touch of a button, thousands of videos of similar cases and their ruling.


So in that light it most definitely does create a precedent. Otherwise this video resource would not need to be queried.


I'll try to look it up. If I can find it.
I haven't been able to find the article, so apologies for not being able to back it up. Let me then say this, prior judgements do stick in the heads of the drivers as such are a precedent in that way anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Cut down your post for brevity, but I'll explain what I think you are missing in your reading of the verdict.
The description of entry into and through the T1 braking zone is setting up the situation for T2. It is the action(s) during T2 that the penalty was applied to.

The reference to T1 positions is (I think) to explain why 33's defence 'Car 44 opening the steering after Turn 1 and “squeezing” him to the apex of turn 2' does not hold up as sufficient reason for Car 33 to be given room on the inside of T2.

So in effect, it is the car on the inside that has been penalised - but for causing a collision, not for failing to leave room. They refer to Car 44's position (in T2) as being reasonable and that Car 33's manoeuvre was too late (in T1) to jutify racing room in T2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
As I wrote on one of the threads yesterday, attitudes of the Stewards will be different depending on whether the overtaking move is on the inside or the outside of a corner or chicane.

More emphasis will be placed on the front driver on an inside move, and conversely, more attention to the overtaking car in an outside move.

I would contend, having raced for about 5 years, that on a normal inside overtaking manoeuvrer, and I am not talking about an outright banzai dive by the following driver, then the lead driver needs to ensure that he gives adequate space to the overtaker or actually concedes the corner, whilst in an outside move, the following driver needs to ensure that the lead car has racing room.

That is why Stewards might give different verdicts on any incident.
I get that it is the case now. What I'm saying is, that not only having the outside guy physically more challenged (centrifugal force not on his side and neither the gravel traps), but also giving preference to the inside guy in ruling, you are really putting the outside guy in a bad spot. To have wheel to wheel racing, which I think most of us do like, you do need an outside guy.

Next year we have aero regulations that allow cars to stay much closer to each other in and around corners. DRS zones will probably be shortened and more overtaking will have to be done in and around those corners with drivers needing to set up their wheel to wheel manoeuvres over multiple corners (like they had to do pre-DRS). I fear the current generation of drivers are not really up to the task to be honest. How often have we not seen the outside guy being pushed or shuffed wide and the fight being ended in just one corner in stead of seeing a wheel to wheel fight endure over multiple corners?

Leclerc-Hamilton Monza 2019?
Verstappen-Leclerc Austra 2019
Hamilton-Albon Brasil 2019
Hamilton-Albon Austria 2020
Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona 2020
Verstappen-Hamilton Imola 2021 (although bit more complex)
Norris-Perez Austria 2021 T1
Hamilton-Verstappen Silverstone 2021
Norris-Perez Zandvoort 2021
Norris-Perez Austria T4
Verstappen-Hamilton Monza T4
Ocon-Vettel Monza T4

Just a list from the top of my head, many more of course.

I find an overtake done over multiple corners much more satisfying to watch than a DRS one. However you do need two cars to tango and I'm afraid that with the current driving standards and the ruling not convincing them otherwise, we might still see much more of the latter.
Taxi645 is offline  
__________________
Constructive discussion: A conversion where participants are maximally open to yet critical of each others arguments, with the intend of enhancing the knowledge, understanding and/or handling of it's subject.
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 00:36 (Ref:4074409)   #257
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,917
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post

Next year we have aero regulations that allow cars to stay much closer to each other in and around corners. DRS zones will probably be shortened and more overtaking will have to be done in and around those corners with drivers needing to set up their wheel to wheel manoeuvres over multiple corners (like they had to do pre-DRS). I fear the current generation of drivers are not really up to the task to be honest. How often have we not seen the outside guy being pushed or shuffed wide and the fight being ended in just one corner in stead of seeing a wheel to wheel fight endure over multiple corners?

Leclerc-Hamilton Monza 2019?
Verstappen-Leclerc Austra 2019
Hamilton-Albon Brasil 2019
Hamilton-Albon Austria 2020
Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona 2020
Verstappen-Hamilton Imola 2021 (although bit more complex)
Norris-Perez Austria 2021 T1
Hamilton-Verstappen Silverstone 2021
Norris-Perez Zandvoort 2021
Norris-Perez Austria T4
Verstappen-Hamilton Monza T4
Ocon-Vettel Monza T4

Just a list from the top of my head, many more of course.

I find an overtake done over multiple corners much more satisfying to watch than a DRS one. However you do need two cars to tango and I'm afraid that with the current driving standards and the ruling not convincing them otherwise, we might still see much more of the latter.
Great post Taxi.

The only way to solve the problem in my book is by going back to the rule where if any part of the car is alongside yours you have to leave a car's width for the other driver.

Failing that, practically any side by side action in a corner will result in "a racing incident", which is not the desired outcome.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 01:05 (Ref:4074414)   #258
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 37,415
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
“going back to”?
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Always consider this might not be 100% serious.
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 02:08 (Ref:4074426)   #259
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,917
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
This Adam


Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
In the context of this discussion, I think it is interesting to look at what has been removed from the regulation.

Up until 2017, the F1 Sporting Regulations contained the following statement:
'Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.'


This sat alongside the ISC that included:
'Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.'

So if we were to look at an incident in the 2016 season, it seems to be that a driver can use the full track width unless another car has their front wing alongside your rear wheel (or further) up until the braking zone, at which point regardless of where another car is, if you are moving back to the racing line you have to leave a full car width.

From 2018 onwards, the definition of alongside was removed from the F1 Sporting Regulations at the same time as 'causing a collision' was added to the ISC. The effect of this is that it is now the judgement of the Stewards as to whether an attacking driver is far enough alongside that the defending driver is deemed to have caused the collision (if one occurs).

So looking at the recent T2 incident at Monza - the Stewards have determined that Verstappen was not far enough alongside going into T1 (as mentioned in their decision) and therefore Hamilton was not (predominantly) at fault for the collision in T2.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, but I can see how it was logically reached under the current regulations.


EDIT: - lifted from another thread, I wonder if this is part of why the definition of alongside was removed because it was not situation-dependent?
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 02:16 (Ref:4074430)   #260
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 37,415
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Thanks. I didn’t know what was specifically being referred to.

Although that is specifically on the straights. Effectively you still can’t remove that space on the straight if the car is alongside.

In that specific situation in the pre 2018 I don’t see that it’s really changed.

But I wasn’t aware of the exact wording pre and post the change.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Always consider this might not be 100% serious.
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 02:17 (Ref:4074431)   #261
Teretonga
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,859
Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Great post Taxi.

The only way to solve the problem in my book is by going back to the rule where if any part of the car is alongside yours you have to leave a car's width for the other driver.

Failing that, practically any side by side action in a corner will result in "a racing incident", which is not the desired outcome.
Maybe.
But if that was the case then Silverstone at Copse would have been Max's fault.
I'm only mentioning it as example of a situation that would have a completely different face on it, not because I want another protracted discussion on Hamilton vs Max.
Teretonga is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 03:02 (Ref:4074441)   #262
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,917
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
Maybe.
But if that was the case then Silverstone at Copse would have been Max's fault.
I'm only mentioning it as example of a situation that would have a completely different face on it, not because I want another protracted discussion on Hamilton vs Max.
Max had left a car's width on the inside, and Lewis missed the apex, so no, it would still be Lewis's fault. Hamilton also completed overtakes with less room left at Copse later in the race, so no it was his fault based on this.

The point is moot however, this was not the law at Silverstone.

The law should be: If there is any portion of a car alongside you, you will leave a car's width between you and the edge of the circuit.

Yes is will compromise your racing line.

The stewards problem will be whether it was a desperate dive that just resulted in a collision or the car was legitimately alongside.

Last edited by wnut; 18 Sep 2021 at 03:21.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 09:23 (Ref:4074458)   #263
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 963
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The stewards problem will be whether it was a desperate dive that just resulted in a collision or the car was legitimately alongside.
So then the rules would need to differentiate between these two in such a way as to allow the stewards to consistently allow for the latter but not the former. How would you suggest doing that?
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks. And, since this year, up hills and through country lanes.
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 09:34 (Ref:4074459)   #264
crmalcolm
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Posts: 8,188
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
So then the rules would need to differentiate between these two in such a way as to allow the stewards to consistently allow for the latter but not the former. How would you suggest doing that?
Maybe make it a penalty to 'cause a collision'?
crmalcolm is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Sep 2021, 09:35 (Ref:4074460)   #265
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 963
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Maybe make it a penalty to 'cause a collision'?
That would do it! Phew, I’m glad we sorted that one out
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks. And, since this year, up hills and through country lanes.
Quote
Old 19 Sep 2021, 10:24 (Ref:4074629)   #266
dsg
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Thailand
Chonburi
Posts: 2,444
dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Maybe make it a penalty to 'cause a collision'?
Such as not turning in on a car when part of it is alongside? Wouldn't that be causing the collision? That would probably mean Hamilton would be deemed to be at fault in the Monza incident.
dsg is offline  
__________________
ยินดีที่ได้รู้จัก
Quote
Old 19 Sep 2021, 12:51 (Ref:4074644)   #267
TrapezeArtist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,485
TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The only way to solve the problem in my book is by going back to the rule where if any part of the car is alongside yours you have to leave a car's width for the other driver.
Halleluia! A workable rule compressed into one sentence.

I've been saying the same for years. However F1 has proved very resistant to any solid rules dictating the giving of space. Just like they won't come out and say drivers must drive only on the track. Instead they have all sorts of mealy-mouthed options of two wheels on the first kerb, or the second kerb, or the green paint, or the astroturf, or maybe four wheels, or, or, or.
TrapezeArtist is offline  
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was.
Quote
Old 19 Sep 2021, 12:56 (Ref:4074647)   #268
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 14,375
S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!
That’s part of the problem, the FIA are never 100% clear on guidelines. And then there’s the whole track limits argument, which is never consistent, as they seem to let some get away with it more than others
S griffin is online now  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8 Born Racer Formula One 289 10 Sep 2020 18:05
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 178 19 Sep 2019 21:27
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 242 25 Sep 2018 00:56
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2017: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 93 8 Sep 2017 14:09
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 28 9 Sep 2016 13:04


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.