[WEC] Ferrari Hypercar Discussion

[Mike E]

499P testing at Fiorano a couple of days ago. Probably had a post-Sebring rebuild.

https://youtu.be/Ui6zTRys6no

[veeten]

Not a bad FP2 session for the 499P at Spa, best lap and 1-2, they really showed their true speed out there.
This time, they just might take both starting slots from Toyota.

[Adam43]

So how did the red lot do?

I assumed that this would be an inconsistent squad. Not massively. Although Giovinazzi does seem to be a little behind. Could that be important when it gets to the big one?

Sebring Average Lap time

Rank	Car	Fastest	Top 10	Top 20	Top 40
1	Antonio FUOCO (Ferrari 50)	1:48.483	1:48.888	1:49.051	1:49.275
2	Miguel MOLINA (Ferrari 50)	1:48.775	1:49.513	1:49.837	1:50.508
3	Alessandro PIER GUIDI (Ferrari 51)	1:48.892	1:49.279	1:49.514	1:49.831
4	James CALADO (Ferrari 51)	1:48.971	1:50.117	1:50.556	1:51.110
5	Nicklas NIELSEN (Ferrari 50)	1:49.416	1:49.773	1:49.996	1:50.429
6	Antonio GIOVINAZZI (Ferrari 51)	1:49.720	1:50.353	1:50.596	1:51.037

PIER GUIDI and FUOCO got more running. As with most teams at Sebring one driver got more running - I suspect that is how the stints worked out at the longer 8 hour race.

Portimao Average Lap time

Rank	Car	Fastest	Top 10	Top 20	Top 40
1	Miguel MOLINA (Ferrari 50)	1:32.452	1:33.542	1:33.856	1:34.291
2	Alessandro PIER GUIDI (Ferrari 51)	1:33.035	1:33.610	1:33.884	1:34.267
3	Antonio FUOCO (Ferrari 50)	1:33.111	1:33.413	1:33.701	1:34.172
4	Nicklas NIELSEN (Ferrari 50)	1:33.239	1:33.586	1:33.739	1:33.996
5	James CALADO (Ferrari 51)	1:33.512	1:33.806	1:33.929	1:34.251
6	Antonio GIOVINAZZI (Ferrari 51)	1:33.897	1:34.286	1:34.490	1:34.836

A straight forward 6 hour race - everyone gets similar number of laps.

Spa Average Lap time

Rank	Car	Fastest	Top 10	Top 20	Top 40
1	James CALADO (Ferrari 51)	2:03.868	2:05.741	2:06.216	NA
2	Miguel MOLINA (Ferrari 50)	2:04.694	2:05.795	2:06.235	2:10.202
3	Alessandro PIER GUIDI (Ferrari 51)	2:05.450	2:05.898	2:06.421	2:07.380
4	Antonio GIOVINAZZI (Ferrari 51)	2:05.658	2:06.587	2:06.906	2:09.820
5	Nicklas NIELSEN (Ferrari 50)	2:05.851	2:06.352	2:06.745	2:08.525

[S griffin]

Excellent analysis. Some seem to be more up to speed than others. Surprised to see Giovinazzi a bit down, I thought he'd take to this type of racing quite well. Hopefully he finds some more speed. Although no surprise to Fuoco near the top, his development skills means he knows when to push. Overall a strong driver lineup and quite a good start. Hopefully this promise translates to a great LM for them. It's a mouth watering look ahead for me

[Mike E]

Some tech details from Ferrari

https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/hyperc...s-and-4wd-work

[veeten]

A great presently as to how their 4WD/AWD system works. Many of the LMH/LMDh entries have a similar drive, and they are amazing. The best example of how they work was during that testing session at Spa a couple of months ago. In the wet, they (both the Ferrari and the Porsche 963) were showing off their handling skills, which said that if it rains at Le Mans they'll be able and ready to do their "rain dance".

[Matador]

Originally Posted by veeten

A great presently as to how their 4WD/AWD system works. Many of the LMH/LMDh entries have a similar drive, and they are amazing. The best example of how they work was during that testing session at Spa a couple of months ago. In the wet, they (both the Ferrari and the Porsche 963) were showing off their handling skills, which said that if it rains at Le Mans they'll be able and ready to do their "rain dance".

The 963 and other LMDhs do not deploy power to the front wheels...

[veeten]

Yes, that seems to be true. Theirs use the hybrid system as an assist for the rear wheels. Whereas the LMHs use the hybrid to power the front wheels as a 50/50 AWD, with the rear wheels powered by the ICE unit.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by veeten

... Whereas the LMHs use the hybrid to power the front wheels as a 50/50 AWD, with the rear wheels powered by the ICE unit.

It won't be 50/50. Not least because the electric part of the hybrid is less than 50% of the total power allowed. The split will vary and this is actually the biggest engineering area that the teams have at the moment.

Even in GTP, which are fully RWD, how the hybrid is used to tune the dynamics of the car is a big area for development. The hybrid system is standard, but the software can be developed, even over a race weekend. Unlike in F1 - although the basis of the hardware is very similar to F1 - they can play with the software.

Ultimately it is something the non-hybrids can't play with even if they aren't at a disadvantage in total power.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It won't be 50/50. Not least because the electric part of the hybrid is less than 50% of the total power allowed. The split will vary and this is actually the biggest engineering area that the teams have at the moment.

What I meant was that the front was an electric-driven and the rear was an ICE-driven, which if you look at it allocation-wise can be at a maximum of 30/70 of the 520kw.

Even in GTP, which are fully RWD, how the hybrid is used to tune the dynamics of the car is a big area for development. The hybrid system is standard, but the software can be developed, even over a race weekend. Unlike in F1 - although the basis of the hardware is very similar to F1 - they can play with the software.

It is a similar system that Indycar was looking to go with originally with their 2.4L engine upgrade. While the new engine was shelved, the hybrid system will still get the go-ahead with the present 2.2 L.

Ultimately it is something the non-hybrids can't play with even if they aren't at a disadvantage in total power.

Its the reason why that Glickenhaus and Vanwall just can't keep up with them. Evev if they allowed for Glickenhaus to race in IMSA, it would have been an example of "apples and oranges", and be forced to upgrade to a simi!ar drive.

[Adam43]

I don’t think it’s the only reason they can’t keep up. There will be lots of little things where a smaller team that doesn’t test as much won’t be able to get as close to the potential.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by veeten

Its the reason why that Glickenhaus and Vanwall just can't keep up with them.

As Adam already pointed out, this almost certainly isn't the only reason why this is happening. Personally I'd go even further as I don't think this is an important factor at all. I don't remember who exactly from Peugeot said that but the idea behind new regulations was to have cars almost identical aerodynamically. Thing is - they are similar at best in that aspect, not identical.

EDIT:
Found the source:
https://en.endurance-info.com/auto/a...what-we-needed

[Adam43]

Yeah - not the only reason and probably not a factor that explains the majority of the difference. However, I think it is significant. A recent Racecar Engineering (May edition?) talked about how Acura in IMSA thought it was important and that was just amongst the GTPs.

Thanks for the link. OT: I think Peugeot are kidding themselves a little. Window is narrow and not easy - hmm. I think the window is easy, being consistent on track is not.

[hondafan37]

Yesterday, during the test day, a Ferrari 499P with a red test livery was being tested on the Red Bull Ring.



https://youtu.be/OsH1M6Utwwo

https://www.instagram.com/p/CtHo8nEN...RlODBiNWFlZA==

[Adam43]

Nice. That’s better than a quick test on Le Mans airport.

They’re certainly trying. I wonder why that track - better than Fiorano?

[deggis]

Surprising, you'd think due to the personnel restrictions it wouldn't possible to test at same time in two locations.

[Gerard C]

Dunno if Ferrai are targetted by those Supplementary Regulations sounding more like a simple reminder of general rules:
"Art 6.5.6 Any chemical and/or mechanical treatment of the tyres is prohibited except for the removal of debris collected on the track.Tyre scrapping is allowed at any moment" Issued June 3. Source:http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...%20No.%201.pdf

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Dunno if Ferrai are targetted by those Supplementary Regulations sounding more like a simple reminder of general rules:
"Art 6.5.6 Any chemical and/or mechanical treatment of the tyres is prohibited except for the removal of debris collected on the track.Tyre scrapping is allowed at any moment" Issued June 3. Source:http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...%20No.%201.pdf

Strange, and does make you wonder if the ACO observed something in the first few races.

[TF110]

Little rule tweaks like this lead to head scratching. Questions about who and what was saw for this to pop up. I love little things like this because someone or someone's are trying to come up with something to get ahead.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by TF110

Little rule tweaks like this lead to head scratching. Questions about who and what was saw for this to pop up.

My point. When you think that for ages if not more, any coutry, any organisation, any series, any level AM or Pro, karting and cars, the chemical treatment has always been forbidden. Then why do they present this as a new rule? Puzzling, yes?

[veeten]

remember the mid-2000 Formula 1 season, where the brouhaha between Michelin and Bridgestone about the Mishies had a "certain odor" about their tires? They were forced by FIA to stop using said chemical compound, which gave Bridgestone, who just happened to be supplying Ferrari, an unparalleled advantage for the rest of the season, and also made Michelin stop supplying teams from that moment on.

All this present rule is more towards physically cleaning the tires of rocks and debris, which makes them usable in later time during the race. It's more an economic than any other reason.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by veeten

All this present rule is more towards physically cleaning the tires of rocks and debris, which makes them usable in later time during the race. It's more an economic than any other reason.

Ha? OK! If its to save the planet lets buy it. I remember Bibendum complaining about a missing carrot in a tyre. The rabbit is still flying…

[Adam43]

A quick driver comparison:

Average Lap time

Rank	Car	Fastest	Top 5	Top 10	Top 15	Laps
1	Antonio FUOCO (Ferrari 50)	3:22.982	3:24.344	3:25.849	3:26.915	43
2	Alessandro PIER GUIDI (Ferrari 51)	3:23.478	3:24.614	3:26.430	3:27.706	45
3	James CALADO (Ferrari 51)	3:27.275	3:29.333	3:30.381	3:31.348	31
4	Miguel MOLINA (Ferrari 50)	3:28.308	3:28.936	3:29.757	3:30.547	43
5	Antonio GIOVINAZZI (Ferrari 51)	3:28.943	3:29.206	3:29.537	3:29.894	36
6	Nicklas NIELSEN (Ferrari 50)	3:29.944	3:30.081	3:30.589	3:31.177	43

On the chart, the main thing you are seeing is a difference between driver that gets the qualifying laps and those that don't. Not that Fuoco and Pier Guidi are the fast ones.

Still there is a bit of a spread here. I wonder if that will make a difference in the race. Toyota here.

[S griffin]

Ferrari definitely have the pace, but as you say, there are question marks over whether they can sustain a consistent pace in the race. If their pace drops off during a key point in the race, they will struggle to recover lost time

[J Jay]

Le Mans-winning car.

We know the speed and reliability are there, let's see if they can carry the form through the rest of the season.