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13 Jan 2020, 12:10 (Ref:3951331) | #1 | |
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2T engines in F1?
Pat Symonds may yet be the saviour of the 2 stroke engine. Great power from small cc, wonderful sound, entertaining power band etc. Stinkwheels have traditionally been a bit dirty, smoky, uneconomical. Lotus came up with a great design a few years ago but there seems to have been little enthusiasm. Symonds idea is very exciting and seems very logical.
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13 Jan 2020, 12:17 (Ref:3951332) | #2 | ||
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For those that have no idea what you’re referring to, a link.....
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/n...ener-formula-e |
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13 Jan 2020, 13:27 (Ref:3951335) | #3 | |||
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13 Jan 2020, 14:17 (Ref:3951352) | #4 | ||
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13 Jan 2020, 14:31 (Ref:3951355) | #5 | ||
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13 Jan 2020, 16:05 (Ref:3951363) | #6 | |||||
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Quotes from the Motorsportmagazine.com article.
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Alternative fuel that is created based upon surplus green energy? I think that may be the long term future of cargo transportation. Convert green (solar, wind, etc.) into high density energy (hydrogen or hydrocarbon) for use in mass haulers such as land, sea and air freight. But what is the state of this today? I know there are efforts to create sustainable (and drop in) replacements for jet aircraft, but I suspect this is a long way off. If anyone is curious, there is a long running thread on https://www.f1technical.net/ about two stroke engines and the potential for them in F1 (Including recent discussion about this same article) Richard |
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13 Jan 2020, 16:08 (Ref:3951364) | #7 | ||
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i find i am also intrigued by the fuel, how they will make it, and whether or not it can also be used in their cargo planes?
i would imagine a lot of work has to be done before this becomes a relaity in the next 5 years no? from the article: 'Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.' also would like top hear more on this. on one hand, what he says about batteries doesn't surprise me at all, but on the other hand, dont hybrid cars also use batteries which i am assuming also present this same problems as the electric car batteries he is talking about? |
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14 Jan 2020, 19:13 (Ref:3951610) | #8 | ||
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And their off.....in a cloud of blue smoke.
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14 Jan 2020, 22:21 (Ref:3951639) | #9 | |
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Hehe.
An image of a grid of Trabants appeared before my eyes and an addition to the F1 Pilotes book of excuses for first corner incidents related to not being able to see where the corner was as an excuse for arriving locked up on the grass and taking out the entire mid-field ... Either that or the brakes not working due to oil on the track. |
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15 Jan 2020, 11:42 (Ref:3951728) | #10 | ||
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Seems not only F1 mooting 2 stroke PUs- also Moto GP....
https://www.visordown.com/news/racin...engine-formula |
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16 Jan 2020, 12:49 (Ref:3951932) | #11 | |
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I wonder what the real reason for the comment was as I am not convinced it was a serious comment and there was a hidden agenda behind the whole thing. Call me cynical!
Actually the modern 2 stroke outboard motor is a very nice thing but two strokes in modern cars have had their day. Mazda is rumoured to be developing a hybrid using a very small constant speed rotary as a range extender which F1 might like to pick up. One thing a two stroke is not is fuel efficient so he proposes top use a motor type that is not fuel efficient and feed it bio fuel? He lost all credibility for me with his first aero study in F1 all those years ago and basically steered F1 into the aero hole it now finds itself and he is part of the plan for the new car, how does that work? |
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16 Jan 2020, 14:20 (Ref:3951943) | #12 | |||
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Quote:
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http://achatespower.com/wp-content/u...8_API_2017.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoQkTIfAB2U It sounds like Achates Power has developed this concept (very different from classic 2 stroke designs) and are looking to sell it to someone (currently working with US Dept of Energy on some type of POC or pilot program) With that being said, who knows if that engine layout is suitable for racing or not. I have no reason to doubt the claims of that paper, but it could be a unique solution for niche scenarios. Richard |
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14 Jan 2020, 19:15 (Ref:3951611) | #13 | |
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It’s something that wouldn’t really work. Leave it as it is, don’t complicate things further
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14 Jan 2020, 19:23 (Ref:3951613) | #14 | ||
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14 Jan 2020, 19:29 (Ref:3951615) | #15 | ||
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ostensibly though, we have the engine we have now because Merc and Renault were working on them before they were adopted by F1 and pushed the series into accepting it.
granted i dont know who presented this idea at the conference, but i just dont see the manus following a design path that doesnt specifically come from either Merc or Ferrari. |
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14 Jan 2020, 21:43 (Ref:3951633) | #16 | ||
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Richard |
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14 Jan 2020, 20:08 (Ref:3951621) | #17 | |
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Until the current generation of F1 engines came along,the most efficient engines in existence were the 2 stroke turbocharged engines fitted to ships-universally diesels.They don't depend on a fuel/oil mix and they actually run on some pretty dreadful fuel.If there isn't much more efficiency to be squeezed from a 4 stroke,it may be politically expedient to take advantage of a concept that is inherently more efficient.
The current F1 engines have compression ratios that would have been thought of a diesel like a few years ago and as I understand it,they use a form of pre-combustion chamber which is also a characteristic of diesels.The direct injection is another diesel feature,so why shouldn't there be a move to adopting a different form of engine and refining it.It would be rather nice to see enormous ships saving a few hundred tons of fuel each trip courtesy of work done on the world's race circuits.Certainly a more useful way to go than having a bunch of unemployed vegans agitating to get racing banned. |
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16 Jan 2020, 15:10 (Ref:3951949) | #18 | |
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I came across an engine that had a similar idea of opposing pistons while at college
but with a different mechanical set up in that used one crankshaft. The pistons drove a rocker that drove conrods connected to the pistons. I cannot remember the inlet outlet arrangement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoQkTIfAB2U |
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16 Jan 2020, 15:42 (Ref:3951953) | #19 | ||
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Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......
Napier Deltic- https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-te...-diesel-works/ Commer TS3. It made an unmistakable noise https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...t-twelve-dyno/ |
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16 Jan 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3951956) | #20 | ||
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Quote:
I don't know what all that company I mention has done to refresh the idea other than to tie it to the very diesel like ignition system. And I think they also think that same company has diesel solutions as well? Richard |
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17 Jan 2020, 00:46 (Ref:3952029) | #21 | |
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A lot of old ideas are made more feasible by modern electronic control in engine management both on the ignition and fuel side. Modern two stroke outboards are using 100 to 1 oil mix to meet with both air and water pollution issues for instance. I think the idea of getting the motor industry to turn the ship around and abandon all the work done in the last ten years on electrification is day dream stuff in the extreme.
The fleet emission average set by legislators just about forces them to go down the path of zero emissions at the tail pipe and this capped by regional bans and charges on certain vehicles reinforces that approach. I cannot see F1 doing anything that clashes with what the mainstream manufacturers are doing as the political ramifications would be simply devastating. Imagine if Mercedes were to agree to a two stroke motor, the political back lash would be something that MB could not tolerate at any level. That is why I conjectured that there must be some other agenda going on here because as a serious question it does not hold water at any level. |
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17 Jan 2020, 07:51 (Ref:3952046) | #22 | |||
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17 Jan 2020, 08:50 (Ref:3952051) | #23 | |||
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Agree with Casper that the whole idea of 2 stroke F1 engines is fantasy.... |
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17 Jan 2020, 09:24 (Ref:3952055) | #24 | |
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A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like. |
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17 Jan 2020, 11:14 (Ref:3952066) | #25 | |||
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