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Old 11 Oct 2021, 21:16 (Ref:4078128)   #466
Matt K
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
But Ellis and Auer aren't in his team. If all 6-8 Mercs are de facto one team, why would Ferrari (or Lamborghini, or McLaren) bother entering with only one or two cars?
Mercedes was very honest about how it looks like - they all share data, work together, all teams are financed by Mercedes. Yes, they're separate teams and I wish they were 'more separate' but look how all factory drivers move freely between teams in various championships. Mercedes AMG customer racing is just one organisation, in DTM it's just run by a few teams.

It's a bit unfair but I don't think it was possible for Winward to tell their drivers "you're racing your own race, don't let Gotz by" because they'd face grim consequences from Mercedes. After all they work for Mercedes and if Mercedes is not happy with them, they can just walk away.
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 08:54 (Ref:4078168)   #467
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Bcarr6 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBcarr6 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Its very clear cut really, all AMG teams are independent teams, but for the DTM are being financed by Mercedes AMG Customer Racing, making AMG their employer for the series essentially (the team is almost like a self-employed person in that scenario).

Obviously with Mercedes bankrolling, the individual teams are going to support the factories ambition of winning the title, and they by all means are going to do so, so they get som more sweet factory funding in the future...

Add the second layer into it, that most of the drivers in Mercedes this year receive their paychecks from the factory, and we are heading into contract renewal territory, then its pretty obvious what they are all going to do.

Doesn't make it great for us the fans, but its completely logical from their perspective.

Its also really not the DTM's fault, and realistically, van der Linde isnt known for those kind of moves either so you cant accuse him of being a horrible driver based on one bad decision.

KVL made a bad move, he probably should have more graciously admitted that sure, but hes not exactly a mega villian for it.

Its a shame the DTM finished that way, but overall was it a good season? Yes.
Was it better than the year before? I'd say so. Racing was more exciting.

I know some of the neighsayers are still upset its just another GT3 series now, but they are also the same people who will probably be upset at DTM's new Electric concept, so how does DTM win there?
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 12:56 (Ref:4078200)   #468
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Merc obviously give them some help, they need their brand to do well and they picked a good team to do it. I don't blame them. It hasn't detracted from the series, it's added to it if anything.
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4078212)   #469
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2021 DTM final standings:

1. GER Maximilian Götz (HRT Mercedes), 230
2. NZL Liam Lawson (AF Corse Ferrari), 227
3. RSA Kelvin van der Linde (Abt Audi), 208
4. GER Marco Wittmann (Walkenhorst BMW), 171
5. AUT Lucas Auer (HTP Mercedes), 152
6. THA Alex Albon (AF Corse Ferrari), 130
7. SUI Philip Ellis (HTP Mercedes), 129
8. GER Mike Rockenfeller (Abt Audi), 89
9. ESP Daniel Juncadella (GruppeM Mercedes), 77
10. SUI Nico Müller (Rosberg Audi), 56
11. RSA Sheldon van der Linde (Rowe Mercedes), 55
12. IND Arjun Maini (GetSpeed Mercedes), 48

Four different manufacturers in the top 4. Six Mercedes in the top 12.
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 19:54 (Ref:4078251)   #470
Jimmy Magnusson
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Jimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridJimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
Its very clear cut really, all AMG teams are independent teams, but for the DTM are being financed by Mercedes AMG Customer Racing, making AMG their employer for the series essentially (the team is almost like a self-employed person in that scenario).

Obviously with Mercedes bankrolling, the individual teams are going to support the factories ambition of winning the title, and they by all means are going to do so, so they get som more sweet factory funding in the future...

Add the second layer into it, that most of the drivers in Mercedes this year receive their paychecks from the factory, and we are heading into contract renewal territory, then its pretty obvious what they are all going to do.

Doesn't make it great for us the fans, but its completely logical from their perspective.

Its also really not the DTM's fault, and realistically, van der Linde isnt known for those kind of moves either so you cant accuse him of being a horrible driver based on one bad decision.

KVL made a bad move, he probably should have more graciously admitted that sure, but hes not exactly a mega villian for it.

Its a shame the DTM finished that way, but overall was it a good season? Yes.
Was it better than the year before? I'd say so. Racing was more exciting.

I know some of the neighsayers are still upset its just another GT3 series now, but they are also the same people who will probably be upset at DTM's new Electric concept, so how does DTM win there?
To be honest, I would have been very frustrated if Mercedes hadn't used team orders and Lawson would have won the title. I would have wondered if they were there to win to begin with.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 08:49 (Ref:4078393)   #471
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Racing Harz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Harsh criticism from Berger of Mercedes and Kelvin van der Linde. According to him, the entire racing series was damaged by the incidents on Sunday.
https://gt-place.com/2021/10/14/gerh...ring-klartext/
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 15:48 (Ref:4078461)   #472
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W2Motorsport should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't see how he, or anyone else would have expected a different outcome under those circumstances. If Verstappen needs a win to get the F1 championship and he is third behind Tsunoda and Gasly with a few laps to go what are the chances that Red Bull lets it just play out in the name of sport?

You can't really legislate rules against it because I'm quite sure Auer/Ellis are capable of spinning the car out or making it look accidental if needed. Would you begin penalizing people because they spin out of the lead to the benefit of another car from the same manufacturer? How do you prove it was ordered or done on purpose and wasn't simply a mistake?
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4078465)   #473
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They should know it’s always been a part of the sport. Obviously we don’t want other teams interfering, Verstappen should really rely on his own team to help, not others

Team orders will always be part of the sport. What else could Albon and Ellis do? They’d find a way anyway. Of course some are sneaky about it and make it look like normal racing and that’s fine. But you won’t be able to legislate against team orders, so you might as well keep it, rather than try to hide it and make teams find other ways to make it happen. That’s how it goes
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 17:36 (Ref:4078475)   #474
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I don't watch DTM anymore but in the past the big problem was manufacturers used already team tactics in the early part of the season. I don't want that but have no problems if they do in the last one or two rounds.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 17:41 (Ref:4078476)   #475
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The DTM is still going strong. There will always be team tactics, although some have been over the top. What Merc did in the last round was maybe a bit underhand considering, but no worse than what other manufacturers and teams have done in the past
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 17:57 (Ref:4078483)   #476
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The DTM is still going strong. There will always be team tactics, although some have been over the top. What Merc did in the last round was maybe a bit underhand considering, but no worse than what other manufacturers and teams have done in the past
But that doesn't mean we have to agree with it.
For me it's one of the reasons for not liking DTM.

In Australia they show a championship doesn't need team orders.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 23:55 (Ref:4078516)   #477
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It's team tactics when one team does it. When a manufacturer gets a number of teams to orchestrate a certain result it's called race fixing. In other sports this kind of behaviour gets people banned from competition.

Imagine in F1 Toto Wolff getting McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams to so obviously pull over to wait for and waive by Hamilton into a higher points position to secure the WDC? They'd be excluded from the season's standings and likely slapped with a 9-digit fine.

Meanwhile in DTM the incident didn't even make the official highlights reel from that race. That's all you need to know.

Last edited by Pandamasque; 15 Oct 2021 at 00:01.
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 21:16 (Ref:4078644)   #478
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It's team tactics when one team does it. When a manufacturer gets a number of teams to orchestrate a certain result it's called race fixing. In other sports this kind of behaviour gets people banned from competition.

Imagine in F1 Toto Wolff getting McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams to so obviously pull over to wait for and waive by Hamilton into a higher points position to secure the WDC? They'd be excluded from the season's standings and likely slapped with a 9-digit fine.

Meanwhile in DTM the incident didn't even make the official highlights reel from that race. That's all you need to know.
Do you think Alpha Tauri wouldn't move over for Max if the championship were on the line?
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 21:42 (Ref:4078647)   #479
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If it was that obvious, it wouldn't go without consequence.
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Old 16 Oct 2021, 12:06 (Ref:4078707)   #480
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The thing manufacturers can support more than one team and that's always going to be a problem. Just have to make sure the championship is wide open till the end between different makes
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