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Old 3 Nov 2006, 16:53 (Ref:1757237)   #1
PeterMorley
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Elva Mk 1 & 2

I have a list from Stan Mason of early Elva sports cars.
Hopefully people will be able to fill in some of the gaps.

Bold means current location is known
Italic means current (at least recent) location is unknown.

1955 Mark 1 sports cars:

Mk 1. 100/6
ELVA OHV converted Ford 100E engine. Falcon bodied.
Painted red.
Now owned by Bruce McCaw.
Probably the car that John Cox restored in the late 80's, possibly to him from Bob Saunders.

Mk 1. 100/7
Climax engined, registered MBU309, Rochdale F-type body originally.
Currently being restored.
2nd Feb 1956 Alex McMillan to Iain Campbell-Blair for 1957
9th Dec 1959 Eric Jones
6th June 1962 Kenneth George Wickens Pearse
3rd October 1967 Peter Evans
around 1971 Duncan Harvey Boxwell
30th June 1986 Bob Saunders
around 1991 John Cox
August 2006 Peter Morley (Belgium)

Mk 1. 100/9 or 10
Originally Ford then Climax engined, registered 800BKN, aluminium bodied
1955 works Tourist Trophy car, crashed and driver (Mainwaring) killed.
Bought by Christopher Warmann who rebuilt it with Climax engine and aluminium body.
Found by Bob Saunders around 1991, restored by him, part exchanged with Chris Alford.
2005 sold by Paul Grant (Belgium) to Italian museum.

Mk 1. 100/17
Car in France

Mk 1. 100/20
Climax engined, registered (?) KDY68, aluminium bodied
Robbie Mackenzie-Low's works car,
Rebodied with aluminium bob-tail body,
Prototype Mark 2.
1997 Roger Dunbar
2004 Bruce McCaw (USA)

Mk 1. 100/23
Ford engined (originally Elva OHV 100E, then 105E with 4 Amal carbs), registered YKJ400, Falcon bodied.
5th October 1956 Peter Arthur Coleman
Coleman later fitted Lotus 7 style bodywork and 105E engine (Falcon body was sold to Holland).
September 1988 to Peter Morley (Belgium) from Chris Alford who had got it from Roger Hurst - at this time it came with a new Falcon body from Autotune.
Rebuilt and sold to Belgian dealer around 1990.
1993 Marc Douezy in France who has fitted a Ford 1600 GT engine.

MK 1. 100/??
Green car sold by New England Classics in 2006

1956 Mark 1B sportscars

100-B-25
1 of 7 cars originally shipped to the USA, to Martin Madison WI
1976 Fred Schumaker (USA)

100-B-31
Originally a green car
1981 Dave Burger (USA)

100-B-35
Seen in 1988 at the 35th reunion when it was yellow,
Formerly belonged to Lee Brenneison (USA) when it was dark blue

100-B-41
Climax engined, Falcon bodied
Now owned by Francois Brun (France)
Previously 3 french guys, and before Alan Baillie (probably the French one), mike Kirkman, Anthony and Carolyn Taylor.

Anthony bought it in "a great old house into the cheltenham area, in "basket case "condition, in late 70's.

1957 Mark 1C sportscars (early Mark 2s)

100-C-20 (idem MK 1. 100/20)
Climax engined, aluminium bodied, KDY68?
Prototype Mark2 car, based on modified mark 1 chassis (Mk 1.100/20)

101-C-1
Ashley laminates body.
Originally to Bo Crim, Dallas for 1957 Sebring, prevented by shipping accident
1986 Jon Clifton (USA)

101-C-2
Ashley laminated body with extended nose
Originally to Bo Crim, Dallas for Dennis Taylor 1957 Sebring, prevented by shipping accident

1957 Mark 2 sportscars

No. 34
Metallic silver car
1980 Micke Mishnee? (USA)
Attended 30th & 35th reunions
June 2006 for sale by James Greene's friend's father.

No. 35
Bob tail bodied
1992 Howard Banaszak (USA)
1995 MG Matters (USA)
1996 Paul Wilson (USA)

No. ??
Bob tail bodied with removable scuttle, possibly Saab engined HSR
early 1980s Carl Schwab, Vineland NJ (USA)
1983 John Lindsay (USA)
1985 Richard Miller (USA)
1989 Bob Grunau (rebodied) (USA)
2006 Bob Engberg (USA)

No. 37
Berdie Martin car (USA)
Now with Frank Beich (USA)

No. 40
Bob Tail, unpainted aluminium body
Richard Miller car? (USA)
2004 Richard Meyer (USA)

No. ??
Chuck Dietrich (USA) car, alloy bodied damaged at Nassau, Mark 3 style nose fitted when repaired.
1968 Jon Clifton, Glen Falls NY (USA)

No. ??
1986 Walter Donicki (USA)
1991 Richard Beecher (USA)
1993 Fred Burke (USA)

No. 49
Dan Abbot car (misidentified as Mark 3) (USA)
1962 Bill Hinshaw, Salt Lake City (USA)
Sid Horman Cal Club (USA)
1990 Ned McDaniels (USA)
2002 Richard Scott (USA

100/53
Built July 22nd 1957
Raced at Connellsville, PA 8/9/65 (USA)
Now owned by Wolfgang Mathai (Germany) - referred to as a Mark 3 but could be Mark 2
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Old 14 Nov 2006, 22:27 (Ref:1766267)   #2
PeterMorley
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Have got the following from Bob Engberg:

> No. 36 (I believe)
> Bob tail bodied with removable scuttle, possibly Saab engined HSR
> early 1980s Carl Schwab, Vineland NJ (USA)
> 1983 John Lindsay (USA)
> 1985 Richard Miller (USA)
> 1989 Bob Grunau (rebodied) (USA)
> 2006 Bob Engberg (USA)
>
> I have become convinced that my car is chassis 36/100 due to its short
> nose and two-piece rear end treatment. (BobTail). No definitive proof
> yet but it seems a reasonable conclusion.
>
> I got a note for J Michael Kreuger that he owned the car 1968-72.
>
> Bob Engberg
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Old 21 Dec 2006, 17:40 (Ref:1796967)   #3
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ELVA MkII CHRONOLOGY ASSUMPTIONS(S. Mason / Jon Clifton Rough Draft 12/20/06)

BACKGROUND:
Of all the Front Engine Elva Sports Racers from MkI to MkV the MkII seems to be the most confusing for many people. That is probably due to so many variations within the MkII series along with the experiments in body and rear suspension design in particular. I decided to put together what Jon Clifton and I have pieced together over the years. The following may not answer all of the questions, but at least will expand knowledge about the MkII as we uncover more history.

I. LATE MkI EVOLUTION TO MkII:
The MkI was started as the first customer cars that carried the Elva name. Various Fiberglass bodies were used and some sold as kits. It appears that an Alloy Body was made that resembled the Maserati A6GCS. It is assumed that Ashley Laminates may have had an agreement with FG N (Frank Nichols) of running a mold off of this alloy body since it has a nearly identical style. The Ashley Laminate body did not have head lights in the fender (some were seen with light in the front radiator air intake area). Some Rochdale bodies were also used, which are assumed to be kit cars. Later in the series Falcon bodies had a similar to almost identical look to the Ashley Laminates with a door and headlights in the fenders added The MkIA used a Triumph Standard stamped front end with space frame rear portion and straight axle using primarily 1100 & 1500cc Engines some with the Elva overhead valve conversion for Ford Flat Heads. The MkIB was a complete space frame using Triumph stamped A-Arms with straight rear axle & Coventry Climax engines primarily FWA 1100cc.

II. Mk II BEGINING:
The evolution to MkII was primarily the use of the DeDion rear axle application. We see this evolution from the MkIB with the beginning of the Streamline Alloy bodies like 100/20, which may have been an MkII prototype based on the many welding marks observed when restored indicating various rear suspension configurations tried. There may have been at least 2 of these cars made or rebodied into alloy designs that started the MkII. Archie Scott-Brown, Robbie MacKenzie-Low, Stuart Lewis-Evans and Ian Raby were the serious drivers that raced these Elva Works Racecars’. Radically raked windscreens, streamlined shielded mirrors characterized them.

II, EARLY MkII FIBERGLASS CARS & SEBRING:
The first record of a MkII that I have was the 2 cars shipped to Bo Crim Dallas Texas on January 8, 1957. These cars were going to be entered in the 1957 Sebring Race. They were damaged in Sea Shipment when other cars above them came loose and fell on them. They were unable to enter the race (they are listed as entries or applied on some 57 Sebring Internet lists). They were assumed returned to Bexhill to be rebuilt. The shipment papers identify:
1.”1957 Elva/Climax 1100cc MkII Sebring Model”. We believe this car is 101-C-1, which Jon Clifton currently owns. This car had rear wheel valances.
2. “1957 Works Elva/Climax MkII Coventry Climax 1100cc (secondhand unit)”. This is 101-C-20 owned by Silas Kinsey.
An article in “Motor Racing March 1957” on these Bo Crim cars with pictures focused on the DeDion. The DeDion was described as “DeDion tube is located at high level by two splayed tubular arms which connect forward of the tubes.” I would describe this design as the rear of the DeDion tube being at a 45-degree angle from horizontal rotated upward from the axle center line. The DeDion was located by 2 pivoting support type tubes that pivoted from brackets mounted to the horizontal tube that connected to the shock towers. I have never seen this type of locating support on other race car DeDion application.
3. Another MkII Prototype with extended nose on an Ashley Laminate body was the Dennis Taylor car.

III. MkIIA ALLOY BODY STREAMLINE BOBTAIL CARS:
An early dark bob tail alloy body car was identified as the first MkII into the USA according to Chuck Dietrich in the Elva News Letters provided in the 1990’s. This car owned by Chuck Dietrich had a unique bulge on the top center rear tail to carry a spare tire (I think that was an FIA requirement). We are suspicious that the earlier Splayed DeDion was probably used on this car and was the reason for the bulge to compensate for the travel in full rebound conditions. Chuck met FGN at Marlboro, Maryland Racetrack in the summer of 1957 where Chuck went off course and crashed into a tree. This car was later sold to a Buffalo, NY owner after being rebuilt at Bexhill (Billing papers report the repairs were completed in November 1957). Today we are aware of 3 cars that exist with the Bobtail type rounded rear tail section (Bruce McCaw’s 100/20, Paul Wilson 100/35 and Richard Meyer’s 100/40 & Bob Enberg’s car). All 3 of these early MkIIs utilize the sliding roller bearing location DeDion design that became the standard and carried over into the MkIII. I am describing this bob tail design as a 2 piece rear tail section. A rear section behind the driver extending several inches with a partially formed rear wheel arch. As you move further aft there is a rear tail that can pivot or be completely removed that ends with a rounded bulbous rear tail section.

IV. MkIIB ALLOY BODY LONG TAIL CARS:
I had never heard the term MkIIB until we saw correspondence from Millard Rippley’s son Rip. I assume this was a way to describe the longer tail MkII’s. This longer tail design was carried into the MkIII. These cars also used a longer nose section than the earlier Bob Tails.

IV. MkII SUMMARY EVOLUTION:
1st – The 2 Alloy Body Prototype Streamliners (100/20 &?)
2nd –Falcon fiberglass bodied cars that were shipped to Bo Crim Dallas, Texas and used the 45 degree DeDion (2 or 3 of this design)
3rd – Alloy Body Bobtail of Chuck Dietrich using the 45 degree DeDion. (Only one known)
3rd – Alloy Body Bob Tail with sliding roller bearing DeDion (Bob Engberg, Paul Wilson 100/35 and Richard Meyer’s 100/40)
4th – Alloy Body Long Tail (2B?) 100/34 Micke Mishne, 100/41 Josh Dovey,
100/53 Wolfgang Mathai & Fred Burke’s car.
5th – Alloy Body with MkIII characteristics 100/49 Richard Scott’s car is a later chassis number and visually looks like a MkIII body, but utilizes stamped front A-Arms. Jon Clifton’s MkII was rebuilt to MkIII specifications in Bexhill after the Suzy Dietrich Nassau December 1957 wreck.

IV. MkIII:
The MkIII was an evolution of the MkII and appears to be a more standardized model targeted for the USA with standard equipment roll bar for SCCA. Sabrina (AJB air cooled engine built for Archie Scott Brown) was the exception and has been reported to be an MkIII, which some think may have actually been an MkII (based on stamped front A-Arms) & was definitely a unique car in many ways both mechanically and aesthetically. All MkIII’s came originally to my knowledge with an Appendix C full windscreen, flat top cowl section, headrests of various shapes, engine located 5 inches further aft (front of Engine behind front tire OD) and a shorter (16 inch) scuttle/cowl to compensate, making the hood longer, roll bar enclosed in head rest, tubular front A-arms, front anti-roll bar, front brake air intakes and a reduced rear roll center.

The MkIIB and MkIII have similar appearances and are reported many times incorrectly because they appear similar.

The following assumptions are at this moment in time. As more pictures and facts are gained it is bound to allow us to understand more about MkIIs.

Stan Mason
Ecurie Elva
Elva MkIII 100/65
StanBMason@AOL.com
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Old 21 Dec 2006, 20:12 (Ref:1797064)   #4
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Bob Grunau is a Cdn. not USA. I suspect the John Lindsay is also the Cdn. one and he is a ten-tenths member. He currently owns (I believe) my old Elva Mk6 Climax.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 16:30 (Ref:1799451)   #5
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Leighton you are correct
Richard Miller ( deceased) , Bob Grunau and I are Canadian. I live in St Catharines ,Ontario and bought the car from Carl . It was my first vintage race car project which was too much for me at the time.
I phoned Richard Miller in Ottawa as he had been helping me as and he bought mine . He later sold it to Bob Grunau of Mississauga , Ontario who finished it
My brother actually has your Elva Mk 6 and I have Don Wolfe's Mk 6 + California one. The chassis on them all are now done and new molds made for the body so jhave to get moving
John
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 19:09 (Ref:1800020)   #6
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Elva Mk1 &2

John: I couldn't remember whether it was you our your brother had my old car. I lost most of my files during a move. I think I told your brother that it had a Lotus 23 rad when I got it and that we built an air duct up through the front hatch as I almost cooked in a 40 lap race at Mosport. Lost 15 lbs. Maybe you should start a Mk6 thread.
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Old 31 Jan 2007, 12:05 (Ref:1830129)   #7
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Elva 100/12

I'm Restoring Mk1 Elva 100/12, The Car Is In Italy And I Bought It In The United States.
I'll Put Some Pics On This Site As Soon As I Can!
I Need Some Infos About The Front And The Rear End.
The Car Has A Fiberglass Body, A 1100 Climax Engine And The Chassis Is Very Similar To The One Of The Works Car Sold By Ebay Some Weeks Ago.
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Old 14 Mar 2007, 23:59 (Ref:1866874)   #8
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There was an early unpainted alloy bodied Elva in Kenya in the fifties and early sixties. It was owned and raced at the Nakuru circuit by Eldoret garage proprietor Colin McNaughton. Initially it had an 1172cc Ford engine which was later replaced by a Climax. I have a feeling that the Climax was 1475cc rather than 1100cc but cannot remember afdter 50 years.
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Old 21 Mar 2007, 02:17 (Ref:1872764)   #9
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The one AQJr raced a few years ago in the SE US had a FWB in it. I know no more about it s history. There were several Mk1s and 2s raced in SVRA for quite a few years, through the 80s and 90s.
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Old 5 Apr 2007, 08:51 (Ref:1883928)   #10
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Elva Mark 4

Before entering other Mark 4 information I thought I'd attach this copy of an article from Classic Cars Africa, that John Lindsay (owner of 2 x Mark 6) in Canada sent me.

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Old 6 Apr 2007, 03:20 (Ref:1884607)   #11
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Elva Mk 4

Peter
this car is a Mk 2 or 3 . It should probably be moved to the Elva Mk1 /2 thread
John Lindsay

(Now done - JT)

Last edited by John Turner; 7 Apr 2007 at 09:36.
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Old 20 May 2007, 05:45 (Ref:1917011)   #12
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Elva MK.II Bobtail 100/40

I'm trying to trace the history of my car and hope that someone out there will be able to fill in some gaps. Info known so far: -

I bought 100/40 in March 2007

Dec 2004 Richard Meyer bought car from the estate of Richard Miller in a fully restored (virtually) state. After having it extensively overhauled competed in severall VSCCA events throughout 2005/6

April 1981 Richard Miller acquired car from Ed Dewell as a restoration project. Fully restored 100/40 - no paint, bare alloy without head fairing

Dec '77 Ed Dewell acquired car from John Stanger with a blown engine

???? John Stanger acquired car from Robert Rubel

Aug '70 Robert Rubel acquired car from Daniel Werner

Aug '66 Daniel Werner aquired car from William Stelcher

1964/5 William Stelcher acquired car from Pat Tomah and competed in severall races in '65/6 - was BRG in colour and ran with a head fairing which it is believed was as it left the factory

So far I have communicated with Ed Dewell and Bill Stelcher. Both of whom claim (independently) that 100/40 was an ex-works car and one of three that ran at Le Mans and Sebring. So far, I have been unable to find any record confirming that any Elva MK.II ran at Le Mans although there was an entry in 1957 (Brow Crim / Tony Palmer-Morewood) but no record of it having competed.

Any information would be very much appreciated.

Cheers
Anthony

PS I hope this is the right place to post
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Old 21 May 2007, 10:30 (Ref:1917839)   #13
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Hi Anthony

Good to hear where 100/40 is following the auction, and that you know far more of its history than we did.

I can't add much beyond what I've already added to this thread.

The 1957 Sebring cars were fibreglass bodied and damaged en-route to Sebring so they weren't able to take part. These were very similar to Mark 1Bs.

I don't have any record of Le-Mans entries for early Elvas.

Your car is apparently very similar to Bob Engberg's (no. 36 he thinks) & Paul Wilson's (no. 35), with sliding roller bearing De-Dion tube and the Bob tailed alloy body?
The prototype of this spec. was no. 20 - an earlier car updated, hence the low chassis number.

I'm sure that Stan Mason will be able to add something, as might Bob Engberg, I'll point them to the thread.

Best wishes
Peter
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Old 21 May 2007, 11:32 (Ref:1917889)   #14
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Hello Peter,

I have been communicating with Stan, Bob and Roger Dunbar. I think (hope) that I may have been able to trace Pat Thoma - spelling in previous posting incorrect. If I hear anymore, I'll post additional information. Also, I've got a number of colour and b/w pictures which Bill Stelcher was kind enough to send me from '65/6. Is there a way of posting one or two of them on here?
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Old 21 May 2007, 14:57 (Ref:1918068)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninoxxx
Hello Peter,

I have been communicating with Stan, Bob and Roger Dunbar. I think (hope) that I may have been able to trace Pat Thoma - spelling in previous posting incorrect. If I hear anymore, I'll post additional information. Also, I've got a number of colour and b/w pictures which Bill Stelcher was kind enough to send me from '65/6. Is there a way of posting one or two of them on here?
Anthony

Yes you can post photos here, they need to be on a website somewhere (if you don't have your own webspace there are various free hosting sites), you then insert a link to the photo.

Like this of my Elva Climax (no. 7):



I'm sure that between Stan, Bob & Roger you'll find plenty of information.

Peter
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Old 21 May 2007, 15:17 (Ref:1918085)   #16
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100/40 from mid '60's with headrest

Here's a pic of Bill Stelcher driving from 1965


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Old 23 May 2007, 06:28 (Ref:1919262)   #17
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Reply from Pat Thoma re: 100/40

Extract of email from Pat Thoma:

"When I had the car all the wheels were the same. It had the headrest (which I believe was original) – the rollbar was obviously added later. When I got the car it was red, with a wide white stripe down the center – probably not original color, we removed many layers of paint before repainting it BRG. I remember there was blue paint under the red.[/B][/COLOR] I have no pictures of the car, but it was pretty rough. We pretty much rebuilt everything prior to racing it. The car did not have Weber carbs, had 1 ½” SU’s. I don’t remember real well, but I’m sure that fuel tank isn’t original. I don’t believe that tube structure mounted to the DiDion tube is original either. I remember the car used to break stub axles (had a BMC “A” rear end) and we may have replaced the rear end with a Triumph Spitfire unit (at least we talked about it). The battery sat on the floor next to the driver. There were no headlights, or wiring for them, when I owned the car. I raced the car with the Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs (as did Bill Stelcher) in 1961 & 1962. I raced it at Wilmot Hills, Meadowdale International Raceway and Lynndale Farms Raceway. The car salesman was in Chicago (as am I) – I’ll remember his name eventually. My memory is that the car salesman raced the car on the west coast before he and it moved to Chicago."

Obviously the 'Le Mans' wheels are a red herring then. Thinks probably sold to Bill Stelcher in '63. Does any of the above ring any bells with anyone.

Last edited by ninoxxx; 23 May 2007 at 06:34.
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Old 23 May 2007, 09:09 (Ref:1919382)   #18
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Bob Engberg has mentioned the following blue Mark IIs.
>On cover of the SCCA's "Sports Car" magazine of May, 1958 is a photo showing an Elva which is listed as the MK II of Charles Kurtz. It was a dark blue and looks to be a MNK II B like the one of Rip Ripley.
>In 1959 Bill Peters bought a blue Mk II.

Don't know if Peters bought the Kurtz car or not, Bob thinks his car isn't the Peters car but it might be the Kurtz one.

This is the blue Kurtz car from the magazine cover - very similar to your Stelcher photo, but some differences like the larger headrest & headlights:



Pat Thoma's recollections are slightly confusing:

If it had a De-Dion how could it have an A-series rear end?
The diff would have been an A-series one in the Elva diff housing, but the output shafts would have been Elva parts, so fitting another diff wouldn't help.
The axle shafts in the De-Dion ends would originally have been Elva parts as well.
Maybe they made their own axle shafts from production components?

SU carbs were normal on early cars like Elvas, only the most expensive cars (or over budgetted drivers) would use Webers in 1957.

Does Pat Thoma recall who or where he bought the car from?
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Old 23 May 2007, 11:28 (Ref:1919473)   #19
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If you look closely at Bill's picture you'll see that there are covers on the headlights. As for the headrest - I think it's an optical illusion because Bill is so tall
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Old 24 May 2007, 15:00 (Ref:1920340)   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninoxxx
If you look closely at Bill's picture you'll see that there are covers on the headlights. As for the headrest - I think it's an optical illusion because Bill is so tall
I see what you mean about the headlight covers, they're hidden in the shadows but you can just about see the retainers.

Kurtz car headrest looks to be smooth fronted, Bill's has an edge around it.
I was comparing the height to the wheelarch height but agree that could just be an illusion.

You would expect the bodies to be pretty similar, they would all have been built more or less at the same time by the same people.
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Old 25 May 2007, 04:49 (Ref:1920745)   #21
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Picture of tail in 1964/5

Don't know if this gives any further clues. Obviously Richard Miller had the body extensively repaired/restored and no doubt there will be differences from original - the headrest being the most obvious
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 07:44 (Ref:2037447)   #22
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We now have the following information from Coys who will be auctioning Mark 2, 100/41 very soon.

Chassis 100/41 was purchased by one Lester Levitt Senior from Frank Nichols on the Elva stand at the 1957 Chicago Auto Show. He went on to race the car in Midwest Council of Sports Car Club events, and later in California, until the end of 1960. The engine was then rebuilt and the car put into storage, before being purchased by Ray Milo from its original, and then octogenarian, owner in early 2002. In highly original condition - the chassis showed no evidence of damage or repair work and the oil cooler, seat, radiator and roll-over bar were all as fitted when new - the Elva passed to Richard Daggitt in South Africa. He in turn sold the car in 2004 to Josh Lovey who had it completely restored, including the chassis, body, engine and all mechanical components, by Roger Pearce, chairman of national sporting body Motorsport South Africa who also runs one of the most highly regarded restoration companies in the country. The Elva was then campaigned in several David Piper International Races in South Africa, during which a new Salisbury limited slip differential was fitted, and most recently took part in the Madgewick Cup race at this year's Goodwood Revival Meeting.
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Old 14 Oct 2007, 19:20 (Ref:2040160)   #23
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Originally Posted by PeterMorley
We now have the following information from Coys who will be auctioning Mark 2, 100/41 very soon.

Chassis 100/41 ............. most recently took part in the Madgewick Cup race at this year's Goodwood Revival Meeting.
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Old 4 Mar 2008, 04:10 (Ref:2143803)   #24
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Elva mid to late 50's Southern Fl.

I ran across this photo when picking up another race car.



I am not sure what race or who was driving it but it has to be around 1957 or 1958. Maybe New Smyrna Beach races in Florida.


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Old 31 Aug 2008, 00:20 (Ref:2278454)   #25
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Photo of Elva MK I

Here is another photo of Chuck Detreich in his Elva MK I, this one taken in Canada. Probably dates from 1955 or '56 as he was racing a MK II in '57.
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