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28 Jan 2005, 18:03 (Ref:1212150) | #1 | ||
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Motorsport's Greatest Touring Car Drivers
Apologies if I've already missed the discussion on this, but did anyone else see Motorsport's top 20 all-time greatest touring car drivers lists?
I know that these lists are as much to provoke debate as anything else, but they usually get pretty close to being sensible - with the right names even if not in the right order. However, this one really is odd - see what you think: 1. Steve Soper 2. Peter Brock 3. Andy Rouse 4. Alain Menu 5. Bernd Schneider 6. Frank Gardner 7. Roberto Ravaglia 8. Gerry Marshall 9. Jim Clark 10. John Cleland 11. Gabriele Tarquini 12. Klaus Ludwig 13. Laurent Aiello 14. Dieter Quester 15. Hans Stuck Jnr 16. Jo Winkelhock 17. Jack Sears 18. Rickard Rydell 19. Frank Biela =20. Brian Muir =20. Nicola Larini |
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28 Jan 2005, 18:46 (Ref:1212173) | #2 | ||
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Got the magazine today and agree its a very interesting selection.
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28 Jan 2005, 19:19 (Ref:1212186) | #3 | |
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I would have put Jim Clark higher - still have fond memories of him racing Lotus Cortina at Brands, waving at the crowd while going around the outside of cars at Druids. But my No 1 would be Alain Menu,
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28 Jan 2005, 20:14 (Ref:1212209) | #4 | ||
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Strange not to see Giovanardi or Radisich.
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"It seemed that Andy had another 75bhp on me, and that as soon as he got on the straight he´d press a button, turn a knob and off he went", Steve Soper |
28 Jan 2005, 22:10 (Ref:1212298) | #5 | |
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I would have put Gerry Marshall, Jim Clark and Cleland higher simply because they have (had) the ability to get into any type of car and be competitive.
I remember seeing Gerry walk upto a car (Ford Mustang) at Snetterton about 3 years ago with his walking stick, get in and go as fast as anyone else there. |
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29 Jan 2005, 01:59 (Ref:1212401) | #6 | ||
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I too would have thought Radisich would have been in there, but i suppose only his mid 90's performances were of a truly high standard, then after those good years his car was either not upto scratch or he seemed to lack the motivation fighting it out in the midfeild. Pity really, because he was unlucky not to have won a championship, and probabaly would have done if Alfa hadn't conquered all in 94.
Cleland is my all time favourite driver, so my biased opinion would elevate him higher too. Last edited by daz90; 29 Jan 2005 at 02:02. |
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29 Jan 2005, 08:25 (Ref:1212483) | #7 | ||
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I can't really agree with Clark being in there, his touring car racing was an aside to his open-wheel committments. It's like Schumacher doing a few Touring Cars races a year over the next few years and then proclaming him one of the greatest in saloon's.....
As for Soper, no doubt he deserved a place in the Top 20, but no.1? He swapped between alot of championships which hindered his success in some ways, but managed the Japanese title in 1995, but prior to 2001 when was the last time he had sat in a Touring Car, 1996? Good to see 3 Aussies in there |
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29 Jan 2005, 08:43 (Ref:1212488) | #8 | ||
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29 Jan 2005, 11:27 (Ref:1212535) | #9 | |
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I think the mag is quite justified in putting Soper at number one. He's one of only a few drivers who possibly deserve such a ranking. He was an ace touring car driver right throughout the 80s and right up to the mid-90s. Not only was he deserving of more titles than appear on his CV, but he was also a fantastic team player - love him or hate him for it, he did Harvey a massive favour in that Silverstone finale of 92 (odd that no mention of that season with VLR is mentioned in the piece, yet there's a picture with a a caption showing the Cleland incident - how could they miss that? It's also a shame they missed out his success in Radbourne Racing's little Fiat X19? in the late 70s). The fact he got himself back up with Cleland etc. in that Silverstone race was amazing as he'd been left for dead on the opening lap after a shunt at Club. It was one of numerous mega drives in Soper's career (I also recall the comeback that year around Brands GP and his last gasp lunge on Sugden at Stirlings).
Reading that piece and you realise just how much inter-team politics played a part in him not winning more titles. However, a lack of titles should not influence our perception of just how good drivers were/are. Last edited by Jonny Apex; 29 Jan 2005 at 11:27. |
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29 Jan 2005, 11:35 (Ref:1212540) | #10 | ||
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It's allways difficult to make these lists, but I can't see that Biela, Ludwig, Tarquini are that far down. And also of course Rydell, he should be higher...
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29 Jan 2005, 12:15 (Ref:1212583) | #11 | ||
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Soper was a lap down on Cleland and Harvey when he took him out.
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29 Jan 2005, 13:32 (Ref:1212616) | #12 | |
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Dieter Quester: The best
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29 Jan 2005, 16:31 (Ref:1212686) | #13 | ||
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29 Jan 2005, 16:59 (Ref:1212695) | #14 | ||
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Yes, Clark's touring car career was an aside to his single-seater commitments, but don't forget this was a period when F1 drivers routinely raced tourers and sportscars between GP's- his touring car appearances were regular enough to have a BTCC Championship title to his name in 1964. Apart from anything else, Jim Clark in a Lotus Cortina has to be one of the iconic images of 60's touring car racing- for something that was, as you said, 'an aside to his open-wheel commitments' to be so widely-remembered nearly 40 years later suggests that he made a pretty substantial impact on touring cars... |
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31 Jan 2005, 09:35 (Ref:1213608) | #15 | |
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Thanks for coming to my aid, Ka. I was pretty sure Soper was genuinely dicing with Cleland for position when they collided. It was an astonishing fightback, what with the rear end of the car stoved in. I also agree with you on Clark as well. It was a serious attempt at touring cars, not just dipping in and out a la Mansell.
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31 Jan 2005, 10:05 (Ref:1213629) | #16 | ||
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I would have thought James Thompson should be in there - double BTCC champion - ETCC race winner - been fast in every touring car he's driven.
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31 Jan 2005, 11:24 (Ref:1213684) | #17 | ||
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Rydell should be much higher, if you ask me. Still, good to see Schneider so far up. B it harsh on Klaus Ludwig?
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31 Jan 2005, 13:14 (Ref:1213762) | #18 | ||||
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I also thought Menu was far too high, especially given that Aiello doesn't even get into the top 10. Menu was great when he was at the head of the field, but tended to lose the plot when racing in the pack. And he hasn't exactly set the world alight in the DTM of late. As for names not appearing, I'm still surprised John Whitmore didn't make the list. Last edited by krt917; 31 Jan 2005 at 13:15. |
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31 Jan 2005, 13:23 (Ref:1213775) | #19 | ||
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There is also an argument that Cleland never really proved himself on a world stage, most of his career being in Britain (with occasional outings Down Under), whereas people like Winkelhock, Schneider, Ludwig, Soper and Menu have put themselves up against the best drivers everywhere.
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Interviewer: "Will the McLaren F1 be your answer to the Ferrari F40?" Gordon Murray: "Hmm... I don't think we have anyone at McLaren who can weld that badly..." |
2 Feb 2005, 17:11 (Ref:1215693) | #20 | ||
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Why are no small class winners included , Bill Mcgovern in Bevan Imp the should have been in the listings.So many class wins and championships to his name.
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3 Feb 2005, 09:37 (Ref:1216211) | #21 | ||
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No mention of Matt Neal? The first Independent Driver to win a Race outright and multiple Independents Champion. But I suppose it depends how the drivers were classified for the list.
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3 Feb 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1216442) | #22 | ||||
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3 Feb 2005, 16:54 (Ref:1216685) | #23 | |||
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Soper by far deserves to top the list. Only 2001was a dire seaon. He was also spectacular in Sportscars, I think BMW treated him a little unfairly in the end. |
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6 Feb 2005, 23:59 (Ref:1219070) | #24 | ||
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7 Feb 2005, 00:10 (Ref:1219075) | #25 | |
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Sorry but Matt Neal in the top 20? hahaha
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