[WEC] WEC 2019/20 season

[Mal]

I thought Ginetta were planning a ladder system with LMP GT - 3 - 2 - 1 products available to customers and the constant failure to be able to produce a P2 has effectively killed that possibility. They held out for the re-tender process for P2 but now that have been killed the door has closed.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mal

I thought Ginetta were planning a ladder system with LMP GT - 3 - 2 - 1 products available to customers and the constant failure to be able to produce a P2 has effectively killed that possibility. They held out for the re-tender process for P2 but now that have been killed the door has closed.

Despite claims of how awesome it is, it's hard to argue the LMP3 is a good option for customers either. And the "P2" is a P2 in name only. It isn't an LMP2.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I get your point, infact one or maybe two lola-aston chassis were owned by jan charouz during 2009-2010 LM/LMS seasons. Infact AMR had to borrow a lola aston chassis from him in late 2011 when they dropped AMR-one, since they leased two chassis to MMPR for 2011 ALMS and one of them burnt down.
Anyway, (if you are not kolles) you can't seriously rely on paying drivers for a 2cars lmp1 program.... rebellion can do it because is backed by a billionaire, SMP could do it because... well... you know...
,

Yes it was all over the place...

I think one car nonhybrid LMP1 team with pay drivers are (were) pretty feasible as Kolles and Dragonspeed showed, but as you say you otherwise kind of need something else to push you through.

That something could have been regional series few years ago

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Despite claims of how awesome it is, it's hard to argue the LMP3 is a good option for customers either. And the "P2" is a P2 in name only. It isn't an LMP2.

That's correct the G57/58 thingie isn't LMP2, but then again it's hard to call even the actual LMP2s LMP2s, when there's absolutely nothing "prototype" in them any longer... unless having anything except GT car now automatically qualifies as prototype...

I'm not as critical of Ginetta as you, as ACO quite clearly screwed them over just as bad as they did SMP and HPD.

Besides, despite the awful non-support of the original Ginetta "Juno" LMP3, the car was actually pretty good against both Oak and Norma when given a chance. Of course, the cars are quite spec to each other so having a dog of a car is semi impossible (good job Riley lol), but still... as for the new P3 chassis no-one's bothered to purchase yet, I guess the french cartel monopoly with conveyour belt mass producing readiness encourages to turn to them first

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Besides, despite the awful non-support of the original Ginetta "Juno" LMP3, the car was actually pretty good against both Oak and Norma when given a chance. Of course, the cars are quite spec to each other so having a dog of a car is semi impossible (good job Riley lol), but still... as for the new P3 chassis no-one's bothered to purchase yet, I guess the french cartel monopoly with conveyour belt mass producing readiness encourages to turn to them first

"When run as a factory entry it's as good as private entries, but nobody wants to touch it" is a hard compliment to sell.

[chernaudi]

We do have to remember that it seems like Tomlinson isn't the easiest person to work with (ask Bill Gibson) and he's ticked off plenty of his own customers. Maybe that's one reason a lot of people don't have faith in him or his products. In someways he's been the Uwe Boll of the motorsport industry, and even Boll eventually found success in the restaurant business when he gave up directing and writing films.

You can bash Oreca and Ligier all you want, and I'm not a fan of Oreca's near monopoly of LMP2 and that maybe some French nationalism played a hand there on the part of the ACO, but at least Oreca and Ligier sell good products that people are willing to buy and even pay a premium for (how LMP2 has worked out has allowed Oreca to charge just about the max they can get away with under the cost cap without incurring the "wrath"--if any--from the ACO), and do provide support for them.

It seems that LNT/Ginetta tried with both LMP3 and LMP1 to skimp by with as little investment as possible and hoped it would work--which it didn't. Yeah, the ACO shafted the privateers big time, but that's been the story since the whole diesel deal to keep Audi around and get Peugeot to join in. The ACO (and now IMSA, it seems) have been greedy for OEM money, and if Audi and Porsche jumping ship hasn't changed that attitude, I don't know what will short of the LM24 imploding.

[Deleted]

When Ginetta started building the original LMP3, the ACO had stated that just as with old LMP1 and LMP2, any manufacturer could enter the class free for all. Yes Oreca was essentially still behind curtains but you could have still had fingerprints coming in from I don't know, Radical and Coyote and whoever. The artificial cartel rules limiting constructors were invented later on in conjuction with the fall of LMP2. In addition, only after the Ginettas had already hit the track (on their own as Onroak was nowhere near ready) did the ACO increase cost cap as well as minimum required weight of the cars, which Ginetta had had trouble matching. So from the get go, they were not built to the optimal specs in the frozen spec land, but kind of carried over to whatever mindset ACO wanted. Meanwhile someone like Norma only arrived for the 2017 season, after the ACO had violated their own ruled in allowing 6th named constructor in

[Deleted]

One more thing, Norma were also able to optimize aero for Le Mans, as Road to Le Mans had not been invented yet at the launch of LMP3. So there are certainly benefits in not coming to a tech frozen class first but later, if rules are bent to allow you to come that is

[JoeW04]

I’ve just seen a video Michael Christensen posted on Instagram of Porsche testing at Monza today and it sounds like they’ve switched to the old exhaust layout, anyone know anything of this?

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

I’ve just seen a video Michael Christensen posted on Instagram of Porsche testing at Monza today and it sounds like they’ve switched to the old exhaust layout, anyone know anything of this?

They mentioned that very briefly on Midweek Motorsport this week as I recall

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Besides, despite the awful non-support of the original Ginetta "Juno" LMP3, the car was actually pretty good against both Oak and Norma when given a chance. Of course, the cars are quite spec to each other so having a dog of a car is semi impossible (good job Riley lol), but still... as for the new P3 chassis no-one's bothered to purchase yet, I guess the french cartel monopoly with conveyour belt mass producing readiness encourages to turn to them first

"In addition, 360 Racing, who withdrew from the ELMS due to COVID-related commercial factors, plus the absence of business to business opportunities to paddock restrictions this season, intend to return in 2021. The team has both a Ligier JS P320 and a Ginetta G61 P3."

So someone has bought one.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-analysis.html

[tux]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

I’ve just seen a video Michael Christensen posted on Instagram of Porsche testing at Monza today and it sounds like they’ve switched to the old exhaust layout, anyone know anything of this?

You’re right it’s the same as the old one in that it exits in the centre of the car now but it’s designed to run with a silencer now so that customers have more freedom over where they can test. If they were that worried about noise I’m surprised they don’t just go the whole way and turbo charge it, sadly that seems where Porsche’s GT race cars are going to end up eventually.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Mike E

"In addition, 360 Racing, who withdrew from the ELMS due to COVID-related commercial factors, plus the absence of business to business opportunities to paddock restrictions this season, intend to return in 2021. The team has both a Ligier JS P320 and a Ginetta G61 P3."

So someone has bought one.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-analysis.html

"... das ein Adess 03/Evo an die Revere Lifestyle Racing Mannschaft nach Sydney verkauft wurde und das leider wegen Covid-19 pausierende 360° Racing Team (GB) je einen Ligier JS P320 LMP3 plus einen Ginetta G61-LT-P3 gekauft hat. Somit haben alle vier P3 Hersteller zumindest ein Fahrzeug an den Kunden gebracht."

And there's an Addess sold to an Autralian team. Every manufacturer has now at least sold 1 car.

http://cms3.gt-eins.at/elms/14024-2-...p-runde-in-spa

[Deleted]

Given that the 'updated' chassis ain't eligible yet for many of the LMP3-involved championships, such as IPC, there is hope yet that the grids of the future won't solely be composed of Oak-Oreca-Nissans and Norma-Oreca-Nissans, but those odd Ginetta-Oreca-Nissans and ADESS-Oreca-Nissans would be appearing somewhere as well. Of course, it will still be a fairly sterile outcome if/when in 10 years time they will still be driving these same exact cars, and 99% of the global entries will be composed of the two mandated French chassis, but at least 4 constructors (or semi-constructors) in theory being able to take part is better than 2

With LMP1 gone next year, and LMP2 mandating spec tire in addition to likely having all-Oreca spec grid, LMP3 will become be the most interesting ACO class left for me, which is bizarre. Even if it's just the same old standardized Oak vs Norma everywhere with the other two never appearing, at least I don't have to check out the bop sheet to know who's going to win each weekend, or have to figure out why the entry list says Lada or Venturi when all of the cars are clearly Oreca 07s. There seems to be at least some very minor differences between the two French options for different circuit layouts

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Given that the 'updated' chassis ain't eligible yet for many of the LMP3-involved championships, such as IPC, there is hope yet that the grids of the future won't solely be composed of Oak-Oreca-Nissans and Norma-Oreca-Nissans, but those odd Ginetta-Oreca-Nissans and ADESS-Oreca-Nissans would be appearing somewhere as well. Of course, it will still be a fairly sterile outcome if/when in 10 years time they will still be driving these same exact cars, and 99% of the global entries will be composed of the two mandated French chassis, but at least 4 constructors (or semi-constructors) in theory being able to take part is better than 2

With LMP1 gone next year, and LMP2 mandating spec tire in addition to likely having all-Oreca spec grid, LMP3 will become be the most interesting ACO class left for me, which is bizarre. Even if it's just the same old standardized Oak vs Norma everywhere with the other two never appearing, at least I don't have to check out the bop sheet to know who's going to win each weekend, or have to figure out why the entry list says Lada or Venturi when all of the cars are clearly Oreca 07s. There seems to be at least some very minor differences between the two French options for different circuit layouts

I still think hypercar is much more interesting than lmp3 where everyone is running identical engines. I think in a couple more years we'll hear about opening up the class a little bit. Why? Because Peugeot might just have a few bargaining chips with their countrymen the ACO. I feel like they will be all for upgrading their cars if off the pace and bop doesn't really help. I hope once theres 3 or more 2-car teams the ACO will loosen up the bop tinkering and letting the cars as is for a while.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I still think hypercar is much more interesting than lmp3 where everyone is running identical engines. I think in a couple more years we'll hear about opening up the class a little bit. Why? Because Peugeot might just have a few bargaining chips with their countrymen the ACO. I feel like they will be all for upgrading their cars if off the pace and bop doesn't really help. I hope once theres 3 or more 2-car teams the ACO will loosen up the bop tinkering and letting the cars as is for a while.

I kind of like watching IPC because of the non-dirtyness of LMP3, yes it's very dry and static and has all the problems of quasi spec + proam racing I've listed before countless times but at least it's honest racing. There's no trickery or lies like in many other classes. On some tracks you can (sort of) see Norma being better than Oak and vice versa. Plus the great NA tracks and TV production make it better viewing than the European counterparts where it's more snooze inducing

Regarding LMH. ACO loves Pug, but if Pug wants to win a class having more in common with GT3 than LMP1, it would be much easier to do that via lobbying for generous bop bulletins. If they attempt to build beast of a car or some sort of homologation special like MC12 it would be a massive waste of money and effort. Which I don't think they're going to do anyway since they're even considering of opting for budget DPi-LMDh instead of Hyperwagon. On top of that we are all aware about the Peugeot financial situation and their long lasted lobbyism towards LMP cost cutting. Putting mediocre Peugeot engine and cheap body panels on Oreca 07 with external spec hybrid system from the USA would make for good ROI and the ACO could let them rebrand the said 07 as Peugeot 908 Hybrid EVO or something similarly lame.

[TF110]

I was thinking along the lines of them being cheap with an lmp2 chassis and asking for leniency with upgrading their car to be faster. It could happen with the token system talked about in the past. We will see, but i do agree they probably don't want to spend anything more than necessary so bop might actually be in their eyes,a favorable solution.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I was thinking along the lines of them being cheap with an lmp2 chassis and asking for leniency with upgrading their car to be faster. It could happen with the token system talked about in the past. We will see, but i do agree they probably don't want to spend anything more than necessary so bop might actually be in their eyes,a favorable solution.

This old thing you refer to? Or some other, my memory is hazy
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/engine-tokens-and-10mj-hybrids-set-for-2018-lmp1-rules-785917/785917/

If/when they go with LMDh and stock Oreca or whatever, I'm also sure IMSA will resist in having any fastening upgrades to cars as whole

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This old thing you refer to? Or some other, my memory is hazy
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...785917/785917/

If/when they go with LMDh and stock Oreca or whatever, I'm also sure IMSA will resist in having any fastening upgrades to cars as whole

Or IMSA will just throw some weight on the car or boost restrictions if it's turbocharged.

I hope theres more freedom coming in this next generation of cars. Imo, the fact that hypercar is open to makers without having to sell like lmp2 is a huge deal.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Imo, the fact that hypercar is open to makers without having to sell like lmp2 is a huge deal.

But is it? It may still have been in the 2018 sketches but the fact that rules were altered so that you can win Le Mans with mildly altered LMP2 car just as easily / "rightfully" as with from-scratch-constructed Hypercar means that eventually no-one's going to bother with their own design. Well until perhaps the hydrogen cars come out, but even there, if they still continue to insist that Oreca 07 with Peugeot headlight shades should be able to win the 24 Hours just as rightfully as say Audi with 80 million dollar zero emission vehicle, well... that too will dry out eventually. It's a hole of their own digging. And just as with their cheap LMDh spec hybrid system, if hydrogen or zero emission becomes trendy in the realm of motor racing / automotive industry, the DPi-teams probably might insist in having some sort of very light spec alternative fueling implementation on their cars as well, just to be able to say in their marketing that "hey we're cool guys as well"

Anyway, not to go all gloom and doom, I'd like to again mention the Road America IPC replay which I watched today, it wa nice. You can see the performance differences between the chassis clearer on the lower df tracks where Norma is just superior (probably because it was designed for LM). Will be somewhat interesting to see if that changes next year when the updates roll over to NA. Can't really judge too much on the European results but looking at Spa it seems Oak has catch up on that ldf front. At least it's not done via lame balance of performance but EVO of sorts, even if it took years to be allowed

[TF110]

Im hopeful for ByKolles and Glickenhaus showing us good hypercars and convincing others that the idea of coming with your own design is not just a fantasy. Time will tell.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Im hopeful for ByKolles and Glickenhaus showing us good hypercars and convincing others that the idea of coming with your own design is not just a fantasy. Time will tell.

Fantasy, I don't think that's the fear of anyone. And I'm sure they will be perfectly fine cars (well... at least Glickenhaus) but I don't think that's really going to matter going into 2022, 2023. Once "Alpines" and pals turn up and are performance balanced to Glickenhaus and Toyota levels, it should be game over right? If Porsche of all companies, known for protecting brand identity at all costs, is considering the option of rebading instead of building distinct car of their own, how much hope is there for others? Particularly since the only advantage of LMH in a bop class would be looks alone. Are looks worth of X million extra dollars and time wasted on wind tunnel, instead of buying off the shelf cheap Oreca or Dallara with hybrid and putting engine and stickers to it? I think thet might be for someone like Apple but they make their money back with fanboy demand. Is there fanboy demand for LMH? Even if Ferrari came over there wouldn't be enough to justify the means.

Formula E and DPi have already showed us that these OEMs are willing to run glorified spec cars if it's cheap anf they can ecpect to win on regular basis. On top of that of course the inevitavle economic meltdown following the pandemic, and you will find yourself with a grid full of Orecas, both in "LMH" and LMP2.

The delayed and panic driven LMH regulations presented in December 2018 were troubling, but at least they had some vague sense in them prior to the Sebring 2019 announcement. From that day onward LMH was doomed, and now with Corona and all this view has only been reinforced. The future is LMDh aka DPi-LMP2. Zero emission most likely won't spoil that either, given that the ACO announced it won't be a separate class but just mishmashed into the other cars in the lead category, and also that this technology is at it's infancy (the ADESS LMP3 hydrogen car still can't run properly after ages of preparation) + the said economic impact of COVID-19

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Fantasy, I don't think that's the fear of anyone. And I'm sure they will be perfectly fine cars (well... at least Glickenhaus) but I don't think that's really going to matter going into 2022, 2023. Once "Alpines" and pals turn up and are performance balanced to Glickenhaus and Toyota levels, it should be game over right? If Porsche of all companies, known for protecting brand identity at all costs, is considering the option of rebading instead of building distinct car of their own, how much hope is there for others? Particularly since the only advantage of LMH in a bop class would be looks alone. Are looks worth of X million extra dollars and time wasted on wind tunnel, instead of buying off the shelf cheap Oreca or Dallara with hybrid and putting engine and stickers to it? I think thet might be for someone like Apple but they make their money back with fanboy demand. Is there fanboy demand for LMH? Even if Ferrari came over there wouldn't be enough to justify the means.

Formula E and DPi have already showed us that these OEMs are willing to run glorified spec cars if it's cheap anf they can ecpect to win on regular basis. On top of that of course the inevitavle economic meltdown following the pandemic, and you will find yourself with a grid full of Orecas, both in "LMH" and LMP2.

The delayed and panic driven LMH regulations presented in December 2018 were troubling, but at least they had some vague sense in them prior to the Sebring 2019 announcement. From that day onward LMH was doomed, and now with Corona and all this view has only been reinforced. The future is LMDh aka DPi-LMP2. Zero emission most likely won't spoil that either, given that the ACO announced it won't be a separate class but just mishmashed into the other cars in the lead category, and also that this technology is at it's infancy (the ADESS LMP3 hydrogen car still can't run properly after ages of preparation) + the said economic impact of COVID-19

https://twitter.com/msm_sportwagen/status/1293564250745643009?s=21

[Mal]

I am no expert but I suspect LMH cars have the potential to be much better 'race' cars even with BOP as they can be built to a much higher performance spec and then dialled back. This gives the opportunity for better power delivery, driveability etc and therefore a much more useable car.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Napolis

https://twitter.com/msm_sportwagen/status/1293564250745643009?s=21

I guess they don't want the hybridless old DPis at LM yet by 2022 simply because of pride. One could also ask, why haven't the old DPis been at LM before if they are now perfectly fine all of sudden... it might look like a desperate move, even if the 'newer' LMDHs only really bring up a low powered spec hybrid system to the table

Originally Posted by Mal

I am no expert but I suspect LMH cars have the potential to be much better 'race' cars even with BOP as they can be built to a much higher performance spec and then dialled back. This gives the opportunity for better power delivery, driveability etc and therefore a much more useable car.

In theory yes, but if majority of the grid is still made of DPi things, that puts the LMHs in politically much more unfavorable position. Since the cars are also a lot less standardized and should have more room to play with, I suspect it will be easier for ACO to throw in whatever handicaps deemed 'necessary' for them, rather than speeding up the American specs. Wasn't there a Callaway Corvette GT3 out there 10 years ago which received something like 100kg of extra ballast during single year of competition... I don't remember the exact figures but it was beyond mind blowing. When it goes that far, surely the characteristics of vehicle transform it into something else altogether, not very drive-able at all...
edit: the said Callaway https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=142

We can all also remember Daytona Prototypes and old non-spec LMP2 coming together. The first was very much controlled and simpler, the second more accessible and versatile, yet the rules were forged to heavily favor DPs, the majority and money holders. Spec tires, which now will be introduced for the first time too, didn't help anyone either. Now, as long as Toyota stays with LMH there will be sizable leverage in that camp still - plus we cannot remember that the ACO surely prefers a class of their own creation in contrast to semi-foreign concept - but if say by in 2023 you have in LMDh Honda, GM, Mazda, Peugeot and Porsche with their shiny modified P2s, the shift of power should surely be in the other camp.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am no expert but I suspect LMH cars have the potential to be much better 'race' cars even with BOP as they can be built to a much higher performance spec and then dialled back. This gives the opportunity for better power delivery, driveability etc and therefore a much more useable car.

From engineering point of view it's a fair point, but would some brands (let's say, their Marketing Departments) allow their teams to step into without any firm assurance of competitiveness for planned UltraTech-XXIIcentury-RacingPinacle-FutureInvetions-LMP2 MegaCars?