BMW in GT

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Can't we just appreciate a big manufacturer like BMW is willing to race its models in the biggest GT class around right now?

and don't get me wrong, I like bmw cars, I owned a couple in the past and are really good cars (a bit overpriced tho). It's just I always seen their cars really off between more proper GT designed cars.
I'm not so that into the "appreciation" status, yes is good to see more manufacturers entering in competition but appreciation is a very different concept, considering we're talking about multinational corporations that use motorsport to actually make merchandising and advertising of their product/brand.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

They aren't but them not being one does not make a S7 a GT. Somehow GT became sportscar and the grand touring idea was completely lost. Little in racing would be in that class now in GTE/3. Ferrari would be something bigger than the 488 and same for Aston, Porsche is a middle ground there but you aren't travelling with what you can fit in the front, Acura, Audi, Nissan nah. Mercedes and Lexus you could argue, MB I can go with but the Lexus well see BMW. Bentley no problem, and I could accept Corvette as the cheap entry model

You're right, but it's nothing new. Here's a few random "GT" cars from Daytona 24h 1968




Some extreme supercars from Le Mans





Hardly all grand tourers, right?

So I don't see why the M4 GT3 is less deserving of a GT racer moniker than something like this (Le Mans 1977, 320i E21)

[Mike E]

M4 GT3 To Run At Spa 24 Test Days

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...test-days.html

[rubberduck]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Just give me a modern Giulia GTAm GT3 already!

[Mike E]

The new M4 won't be taking part in the NLS race this weekend.

https://twitter.com/SheldonvdLinde/s...068590592?s=19

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

The poor thing is so muffled, the normally sonorous straight 6 character is missing.

An exhaust turbine is a muffler.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Is it a h&s noise restriction thing?

No, turbocharged engines are just quieter (as in modern sportscars with downsize turbo engines) -- especially as the turbocharged engine no longer requires high rpms to get the power either.

The 911 Turbo S has never sounded as good as the 911 GT3 for example.

Originally Posted by canaglia

maybe because, at their core, M3, M4, M6 and M8 aren't actually GT cars but high performance packages of 4 doors designed sedan cars?

The lack of true supercars in the BMW range is very strange for a maker of "The Ultimate Driving Machine"(TM).

One almost ponders if Porsche is a better fit for this title than the Bavarian uber-machines...

BMW's slogan says they are the last word in Driving Machine excellence, yet their cars are often inferior driving machines to those sold by Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren and even Lotus!? Strangely, BMW seems to have far less of an emphasis on tactile steering feel than Lotus, McLaren or even Porsche:

We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs. There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road. When we moved to EPS, we learned how to divide the good and bad messages for the customer.

- Johann Kistler
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Do next gen gt3 cars need to keep the road chassis?

I don't think so. The Camaro even had a spaceframe chassis IIRC.

They usually do keep the road chassis though. The M4's extra wheelbase could be obtained via bespoke geometry of the racecar's control arms?

I wonder if there are any GT3 cars (maybe the Ferrari, Honda or McLaren?) using the OEM forged aluminium control arms from the road car?

[GusGasfuss]

@V8 Fireworks: great write-up and also nice link to car&driver article!!!!


In my opinion, BMW had never a real GT in his range, except of the M1. Most of the high-class cars are more Street-GTs like the 6 or 8 models.

In whole history, BMW was more a touring car maker, beginning with the 1500, 02, 3s etc. Unfortunately, the world stopped to have touring car series like that anymore, due to costs and maybe main market aims.


For GT3, there are a lot of concepts in it, which are not really a GT in its base. Even the "godfather" of GT3 (Porsche 911 GT3) is not really a "Grand Tourer", it was always a tool for driving the track.


Maybe GT3 is the new touring class, nothing else...

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GusGasfuss

@V8 Fireworks: great write-up and also nice link to car&driver article!!!!


In my opinion, BMW had never a real GT in his range, except of the M1. Most of the high-class cars are more Street-GTs like the 6 or 8 models.

In whole history, BMW was more a touring car maker, beginning with the 1500, 02, 3s etc. Unfortunately, the world stopped to have touring car series like that anymore, due to costs and maybe main market aims.


For GT3, there are a lot of concepts in it, which are not really a GT in its base. Even the "godfather" of GT3 (Porsche 911 GT3) is not really a "Grand Tourer", it was always a tool for driving the track.


Maybe GT3 is the new touring class, nothing else...

sort of... M1 chassis was made by dallara and most of work on M1 and first models were made by lamborghini before BMW took everything back since lamborghini was dealing with (another) incoming bankrupt in the meantime. BMW makes good touring and sedan cars, good engines and sometimes even good bikes, but making GT isn't their job because is not their business.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by canaglia

sort of... M1 chassis was made by dallara and most of work on M1 and first models were made by lamborghini before BMW took everything back since lamborghini was dealing with (another) incoming bankrupt in the meantime. BMW makes good touring and sedan cars, good engines and sometimes even good bikes, but making GT isn't their job because is not their business.

But it has been a major part of their business for over 20 years as traditional manufacturer investment in touring car racing died out.

The 1994/5 M3 GTR, the 200-02 GT2 works cars in WEC, the USA GTE cars, and the myriad GTE/GT3 programmes over the last 10 or so years.

[canaglia]

the fact BMW is involved in GT motorsport work/customers program doesn't automatically and stricly mean BMW produces road GT cars.
In late '00 - early '10 morgan had a gt3 and a (rebranded) lmp2... this made morgan a GT/sportscar manufacturer? I don't think so.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by GusGasfuss

Maybe GT3 is the new touring class, nothing else...

GT3 is the new Group 5 (late '70s-'80s version), but more vanilla.

[NaBUru38]

The 6 Series and 8 Series are literally grand tourers.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

The 6 Series and 8 Series are literally grand tourers.

if as "grand" you mean the french word for big/large/huge in english, well I completely agree with you.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

GT3 is the new Group 5 (late '70s-'80s version), but more vanilla.

I see it more like the current equivalent of the European Touring Car Championship but with a few supercars thrown in!

Not an ETCC like the TCR we have now (although ironically TCR does have a similar regs set to GT3!) but more like the Group A and Group 2 days before that.

[rubberduck]

Originally Posted by canaglia

if as "grand" you mean the french word for big/large/huge in english, well I completely agree with you.

He probably does, just as the grand tour used to be a journey rather then a race.

GT always meant an amalgam of power & comfort, which roughly correlates with size. To optimise the solution one kept the large wheelbase and big engines of the chosen chassis, but cut the occupied volume, hence the classic coupé form. A DB4 was no small car in his day and time either.

Obviously, cars grew and the lightweight aspect used to be more popular (more needed?), but I honestly don't see many cars fitting the grand tourer criteria significantly better then BMWs 6 or 8?!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by rubberduck

He probably does, just as the grand tour used to be a journey rather then a race.

GT always meant an amalgam of power & comfort, which roughly correlates with size. To optimise the solution one kept the large wheelbase and big engines of the chosen chassis, but cut the occupied volume, hence the classic coupé form. A DB4 was no small car in his day and time either.

Obviously, cars grew and the lightweight aspect used to be more popular (more needed?), but I honestly don't see many cars fitting the grand tourer criteria significantly better then BMWs 6 or 8?!

Generally I could say that cars like bmw series 6, 8, 7 as well and/or cars like audi A8 are big touring car made for potential customers who look for a big sized berlina/sedan layout car powered by a big engine that could give enough power in any situation.
A "GT" read as grand tourer, in my cognition, is more a car made mainly with a sport attitude, that's why taking 2 cars with same layout and (more or less) comparable size like could be AM vantage and BMW M6, I think AM vantage is a GT, M6 is a high performance "big" touring car.
Not to mention that BMW took a leap in racing GT world only in last 2 decades, while it always had a very consolidated tourism heritage, racing and not.

[NaBUru38]

At the 24h Spa, the only BMW pro cup entries will be the two regular Walkenhorst cars.

[S griffin]

Interesting. Any reason why BMW have scaled down on this event? Lack of interest?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Interesting. Any reason why BMW have scaled down on this event? Lack of interest?

bmw never brought many backed cars at spa in the recent past after MVDS retirement

[S griffin]

That's understandable, although a bit of a shame all the same. Just hope we see more of them in the future

[GusGasfuss]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Interesting. Any reason why BMW have scaled down on this event? Lack of interest?

I think, promotion of a car, that is not available to buy anymore (neither street car nor GT3-version), is not really well money to spend...
The 6 series passed away March 2018.



I think, they wait for M4 GT3 to be ready (technical & homologation), then we will see a lot of factory-backed cars (at least semi-factory).

[NaBUru38]

Supposedly they have a tight budget and the LMDh is the priority.

[S griffin]

That makes sense. Just hope they are back with more when they are ready to

[Mike E]

M4 GT3 testing at Sebring. Sounds good but maybe a bit quiet.

https://youtu.be/ETTeu12OS1Q