GP2 and GP3: Pros and Cons etc..

[Mak]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Good point. GP3, if it does turn out to be cheaper than F3 will certainly be in F2 territory.



Well the way I see it is WSR 3.5 is still higher or 'bigger' than the level GP3 will be aiming at. F2 despite the grand title is lower than F3 to everyone bar an unassuming new sponsor I would imagine?

WSR is bigger than F3, certainly more powerful and faster as we all know, but largely seen as either an alternative to F3, or a holding ground for GP2?

Yes, the the big time hospitality element is a major sponsor/entrant puller. This relates to the earlier argument in the thread about the greater appeal of plumping for a series (no matter how new) for being on the GP support bill even over an established series like F3.

Funnily enough It ought to be easier to sell sponsorship space for an WSR car than an F3 as well because of the massive crowds that go to it. The crowds at WSR meetings are second only to F1 and Le Mans surely?

It's therefore a no brainer for a new series that doesn't have manufacturer backing (like the WSR does), to get on a GP bill than go on as support to existing non GP series with the exception of Touring Cars maybe. But then Touring cars has crowds but isn't the right arena for aspirational youg drivers and their sponsors who are selling the F1 dream, not a national series as the target.

Budgets for UK F3 around £450,000 to £550, Euro highter, F2 is about £250. So I don't understand the original comment. The budgets being bandied around at the moment without too much known of the series are +£500.

Would not have called Red Bull an unassuming new sponsor, ( more a heavily involved motorsport sponsor). While I agree with the level of series element, in the current economic enviroment, sponsors if they existed would prefer to spend £200 grand than £500- £600 for the same exposure. I can assure you that the actual exposure at a GP is not great for minor categories and "hospitality" Bloody Expensive. I think a close examination of all competitors at these levels of motorsport are +90% privately funded.

I think 1 off support races at F1 meeting are better value for National championships rather than running series as common support for Euro GPs, other than highest level series such as GP2.

You mention WSR 3.5 as having biggest crowds, yet they are unable to find budgeted drivers and this year Renault have had to save face and subsidise many drivers to keep the series seeming strong. ( By the way I like WSR). But we have to face facts money is scarce and it talks.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mak

Budgets for UK F3 around £450,000 to £550, Euro highter, F2 is about £250. So I don't understand the original comment. The budgets being bandied around at the moment without too much known of the series are +£500.

F3 is too expensive and has been arguably since the mid to late 90's ever since the air restrictor 'free up' which gave the engines an extra 100 hp or whatever. Still it has maintained it's position because nothing has yet come along to topple it, anyone who has thought of it has not proceeded because of it's reputation and strong base. GP3 might change that thanks to the organisational support and calendar advantages it might offer.

F2 automatically sounds bigger than F3 but it isn't and that's why budgets and driving talent are considerably less?

Originally Posted by Mak

Would not have called Red Bull an unassuming new sponsor, ( more a heavily involved motorsport sponsor). While I agree with the level of series element, in the current economic enviroment, sponsors if they existed would prefer to spend £200 grand than £500- £600 for the same exposure. I can assure you that the actual exposure at a GP is not great for minor categories and "hospitality" Bloody Expensive. I think a close examination of all competitors at these levels of motorsport are +90% privately funded.

Red Bull is a modern day equivalent to the 'Marlboro World Championship Team' imo. Massive cross category funding to suit the various markets it's chosen drivers come from or participate in so no, they are not unassuming!!! SME's and new to motorsport firms could well be caught out in an unassuming manor though.

It would be relatively simple to trade on the F2 title in selling sponsorship space and the relatively cheap budget requirement would also help, but you couldn't say to the sponsor that you would be one or maybe 2 steps away from F1 like you could in the £4-500k bracket categories like WSR/F3. There's the flip side to that one.

Sponsor: "So young driver A, let's agree to a 3 year contract. if I give you 200k to race in F2, which sounds perfectly logical to me, and you win it what will you want from me next year to do F1?"

Driver: "Erm, well actually the next step would probably be F3..."

Sponsor: "But how, surely the next step would be F1?"

Driver: "Err... well not quite, and I'd need half a million quid to do it!!"

Sponsor: "What???"

Driver: "Erm.... Or I could do GP3 which supports Grand Prix at 9am every other Sunday, and then GP2 the year after and i'd be in front of the F1 teams and crowds, I would, I would! Or I could do the big Renault series which attracts over 100,000 people which will get your name seen by as many people as at the GP!"

Sponsor: "What the hell are you on about!!"

You would have to be a seriously good 'Guy Edwards' to get round all this and make it clear to your sponsor!!! F2, GP3 are going to confuse things even more surely?

Lesser budgets are only more attractive to potential sponsors if what they are paying for is going to convey the right message and get their brand seen in the right way.

So at present, F3 still has the edge on F2 because the latter's title is way OTT for what it is and where it goes, but GP3 on the other hand might get round that by saying hey this promises and can deliver more than F3 in terms of sponsor brand awareness and the amount of people both trackside and on telly who will view it.

[sauber11]

Some information:
1) Mikhail Aleshin said that formula2 isnt that cheap as everyone saying. And
2)Daniil Move said that P1 motorsport offer didnt cost much higher than F2 one.

So i think its not right to think that WSR still costs 800.000 euro and formula2 just 250.000. And KTR boss before selling his team said that he even tried to offer his seats for 600.000 $ So things changed since last year.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

You would have to be a seriously good 'Guy Edwards' to get round all this and make it clear to your sponsor!!! F2, GP3 are going to confuse things even more surely?

Lesser budgets are only more attractive to potential sponsors if what they are paying for is going to convey the right message and get their brand seen in the right way.

Two very good points here. Unless GP3 can dislodge everything else at that level and become the defact path to Formula One, it will surely only exacerbate the current confusion. On the subject of costs, you're absolutely right - arms length sponsors [as opposed to friends/family] will want a very clear return on their investment. In other words if an investment of GBP200K gives me exposure at a level of no interest but an investment of GBP550K gives me exposure at a level that is of value to me... then I'll be stumping up the GBP550K or I won't be investing.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by Mak

You mention WSR 3.5 as having biggest crowds, yet they are unable to find budgeted drivers and this year Renault have had to save face and subsidise many drivers to keep the series seeming strong

Which is something that is also been done in F3 Euroseries and the FM so what's the problem?

[Spudy]

It seems to me that most people agree GP2 is the best series to be in before making the jump to F1.

So why wouldn't GP3 be logical step before GP2?

I don't think current sponsors support drivers for the actual coverage otherwise they would just sponsor the teams instead. The truth of the matter is sponsors sponsor drivers so they get into F1 and then they profit. Or more basically their sponsors are dad's company, or friend of a friend etc etc.

Very few sponsors are actually using junior formula's for their advertising platform.

GP3 will be set around the same budgets as F3 and WSR etc what do you think a driver will choose? GP3 for sure as they want to be around and in F1 plain and simple. And GP3 will have a constructor like GP2 with a Renault partnership. The only difference will be Pirelli tyres.

WSR do have better cars performance wise but those drivers essentially will be looking for a GP2 team next and they'll have a better chance of landing a top GP2 drive if they race in GP3 where everyone can see them. Also if some GP2 teams do join GP3 then thats a great pathway for them up to the big team.

I think F3 will still survive, especially the national series as they have such a history.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Spudy

It seems to me that most people agree GP2 is the best series to be in before making the jump to F1.

Most definitely, with it could be said (based on the talent that's come through it and then gone onto F1 racing/testing) WSR a not far off second......

Originally Posted by Spudy

I don't think current sponsors support drivers for the actual coverage otherwise they would just sponsor the teams instead. The truth of the matter is sponsors sponsor drivers so they get into F1 and then they profit. Or more basically their sponsors are dad's company, or friend of a friend etc etc.

Very few sponsors are actually using junior formula's for their advertising platform.

Big firms as well as smaller ones have backed young drivers in the past, in the hope they will make it, but maybe just because an MD was impressed with a young drivers guts at going into an HQ and selling themselves.....

You're mostly spot on with your assessment in the case of the multinationals in the main though, it was certainly the case with fag advertising, with exception of local importers who stumped up their own budgets.

Originally Posted by Spudy

GP3 will be set around the same budgets as F3 and WSR etc what do you think a driver will choose? GP3 for sure as they want to be around and in F1 plain and simple. And GP3 will have a constructor like GP2 with a Renault partnership. The only difference will be Pirelli tyres.

Well if it's gonna be that good on the budget front and that competitive as a category there'll hardly be any seats spare so plenty of good drivers will have to look elsewhere!!

I completely agree that the lure of the GP2/F1 shop window will be a major selling point for GP3, but canny team bosses in F3 and FR3.5 will surely have a few cards up their sleeves!

[Spudy]

The thing is I don't think there will be many drivers around with 500K plus. Although there will be plenty of drivers, WSR teams can't run that low ditto many other catergories.

I think there will be plenty of drivers but not with enough budget, teams can't run on thin air so thats where I think we'll see a problem. The reccession has really hit marketing spends so driver's are struggling to get money together. Even ones like Senna who I heard didn't get the torro rosso drive as he didn't have enough sponsorship so if he can't get loads together I don't know how lesser known smaller drivers will.

I hope the market picks up as I think it is a shame only the rich boys get to drive. I think Oliver Turvey is a great prospect so hopefully he be able to keep going.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Spudy

The thing is I don't think there will be many drivers around with 500K plus. Although there will be plenty of drivers, WSR teams can't run that low ditto many other catergories.

I think there will be plenty of drivers but not with enough budget, teams can't run on thin air so thats where I think we'll see a problem. The reccession has really hit marketing spends so driver's are struggling to get money together. Even ones like Senna who I heard didn't get the torro rosso drive as he didn't have enough sponsorship so if he can't get loads together I don't know how lesser known smaller drivers will.

I hope the market picks up as I think it is a shame only the rich boys get to drive. I think Oliver Turvey is a great prospect so hopefully he be able to keep going.

Don't know where you have been the last 30 years, but it has only been the rich boys racing for a long time. Trouble is with the global credit crisis means most of them have had to cut back as well. Actual independant sponsorship is very rare in all sub F1 categories so it pretty well family funding.
Most recent news I've heard is that GP3 will be just faster than F3 and Budgets at about +£650k. ??????deep pockets in these times..

[Mak]

GP2 teams have been given latest series/car information and are require to confirm their interest in competeting in the series.

[Spudy]

I understand that motor racing is mostly rich boys but in better financial times a smaller poorer driver has more chance of getting at least some budget together. At the moment it must be impossible.

[chunterer]

If GP3 comes in at over £650k a season it's got no chance over F3 imo.

Someone like Nick Tandy could make that £150k difference go a long long way!!!

[davyboy]

So is it F-Renault -> F2 -> F3 -> GP3 -> WSR -> GP2 then ?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by davyboy

So is it F-Renault -> F2 -> F3 -> GP3 -> WSR -> GP2 then ?

FR - F3 - F1 or FR - F1 or FR - F2 - F1 or FR - F3 - GP2 - F1 or F3 - Gp2 - F2 - F1 or F3 - A1GP - WS - F2 - F1 ,,, any way is possible. WS is very shakey for 2010. Really think it should be through GP2 to F1 but there are very good drivers who will never have the funds for Gp2 and there is a political and marketing incentive to have an F2 driver get into F1.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by chunterer

If GP3 comes in at over £650k a season it's got no chance over F3 imo.



Someone like Nick Tandy could make that £150k difference go a long long way!!!

Mate I could make £150k go a long way, just not in motorsport!!lol

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mak

FR - F3 - F1 or FR - F1 or FR - F2 - F1 or FR - F3 - GP2 - F1 or F3 - Gp2 - F2 - F1 or F3 - A1GP - WS - F2 - F1 ,,, any way is possible. WS is very shakey for 2010. Really think it should be through GP2 to F1 but there are very good drivers who will never have the funds for Gp2 and there is a political and marketing incentive to have an F2 driver get into F1.

Any way is possible... but what, I wonder, is the concensus among F1 team managers.

[Peralta]

what are the requirements for a super license?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Peralta

what are the requirements for a super license?

Here in Appendix L of the ISC.

Any of the following will do

• 5 starts in F1 races in the last year
• 15 starts in F1 races the last three years
• Previously had an F1 Superlicence and was a was a regular test driver for an F1 team last year
• Top three in the last two years of GP2, GP2 Asia, Formula Nippon or Super Duper Palmer Audi
• Top three in the last two years of CCWS or IRL, or top four last year (following the merger it will be top four in the last two years next year)
• Champion of World Series by Renault, F3 Euroseries, British F3, Italian F3, Spanish F3 or Japanese F3
• Be judged to have outstanding ability but no opportunity to qualify for one, in which case the driver must undertake 300km of testing over 2 days or less.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Any of the following will do

• Top three in the last two years of GP2, GP2 Asia, Formula Nippon or Super Duper Palmer Audi
• Champion of World Series by Renault, F3 Euroseries, British F3, Italian F3, Spanish F3 or Japanese F3

I don't think I had fully realised that someone who finIshes 3rd in a certain FIA series could qualify for an SL ahead of far better talent who finishes in a similar position in serie far more significant!!!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Be judged to have outstanding ability but no opportunity to qualify for one, in which case the driver must undertake 300km of testing over 2 days or less.

I'm banking on this one to get me there

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Here in Appendix L of the ISC.

• Top three in the last two years of [...]Super Duper Palmer Audi

Originally Posted by chunterer

I don't think I had fully realised that someone who finIshes 3rd in a certain FIA series could qualify for an SL ahead of far better talent who finishes in a similar position in serie far more significant!!!

Thank goodness, Teixeira still has a chance at F1 stardom!

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by Mak

Most recent news I've heard is that GP3 will be just faster than F3 and Budgets at about +£650k. ??????deep pockets in these times..

If this is true, then there is not much future in the series. But I would like to think that they will go that high, it's foolish.

[sauber11]

Bruno Michel said, that 41 !!! teams interested in running gp3 series.

Does anyone still have doubts on gp3 series future?

http://www.sports.ru/automoto/25728417.html russian article.

[Mak]

[QUOTE=sauber11;2523713]Bruno Michel said, that 41 !!! teams interested in running gp3 series.

Does anyone still have doubts on gp3 series future?

http://www.sports.ru/automoto/25728417.html russian article.[/QUOT

Yes me... I'm also interested but that does not mean that I can find drivers with the required funds..

[sauber11]

You cant , but top 10 teams out of that 41 team list will :P