LMS 2011 Discussion

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I personally think a GTC class such as this is a better idea than a GT3 class or especially a GTE Am class. With Pescarolo planning on running the WEC in 2012, and teams like OAK and Rebellion showing it is possible for privateers to run the WEC/ILMC, I really dont see the point of an LMP1 class next year in the LMS.

Plus of course, the current P2 grid is really strong. Now that the LMS has made its move for the future, I really think its time for the ALMS/IMSA to make its own move for the future of the series. Also, glad that the race distance has not been decreased like many expected.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I personally think a GTC class such as this is a better idea than a GT3 class or especially a GTE Am class.

Actually, given the pro-am nature of the series, GTE-Pro is the class that looks a bit out of place. Then again, GTE-Pro perhaps makes sense seeing how LMS GTE-Pro teams did not buy into the ILMC in mass scale. But, yeah, the possibilities for the GTC class sound quite good. Hopefully the ALMS is listening, although there are rumors that Porsche is paying for a single make class. I don't know if I buy those rumors. Who knows.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

I can only see the abolition of LMP1 in the LMS hurting the series and potentially forcing some of the smaller LMP1 teams or potential LMP1 teams into running in LMP2. Not a good thing in my opinion as LMP1 will eventually become smaller and smaller and will cease to exist. The idea to separate the LMS away from the WEC is a poor move as well. Just look at the grids we have had so far at the ILMC/LMS races. All I hope is that Silverstone remains on the WEC calender, this move has further dented my faith in the ACO and there wasn't exactly a lot there to begin with.

Anyone contemplating competing in P1 needs to be on a bigger stage than the LMS, that applies to manufactuers and major sponsors which privateers require.

Pescarolo and Rebellion both intend to run in the WEC, while Quifel ASM have struggled so maybe better suited to P2.

The LMS needs 10-15 car P2 grids to provide good racing, with the cream of the crop graduating to P1 in the WEC.

I don't envisage the series becoming a major media or spectator draw, the LMS has rarely done so in it's entire existence. With so many sportscar series, they have to find their own place in the pecking order.

[chernaudi]

And we have to remember as AGD said, would've there have really been much of an LMP1 class for 2012 to begin with?

Rebellion wants to run in the WEC next year, as does Oreca with whatever program they end up with (Audi R18, Peugeot 908, their own car, whatever, they'll be there in some shape and form), and Pescarolo has also shown much interest in the WEC and seems to prefer that to the LMS.

If Oreca, Rebellion and Pescarolo leave the series and take a couple of more teams with them (like OAK and maybe 1-2 more), there goes the LMP1 class for the most part. That would make the ALMS' LMP1 class seem extremely healthy (which ironically is now gaining cars, as opposed to possibly losing cars to the point where the class is abolished)!

I think that Peter has seen the writing on the wall, and the ACO will give their attention mostly to the WEC, which the ACO is the main sanctioning partner in the combine with them and the FIA.

Still, the LMS, as Europe's premier sportscar series (the WEC not withstanding) can take such a gamble, while where the ALMS stands in regards to the WEC (companion/feeder series, or will have to morph into a stand alone series) does remain to be seen.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Why are people outside of this forum so damn paranoid? Ive always been a nattering nabob of negativism, but some of this is just stupid

Of course in usual fashion many on other forums are worried, neurotic, paranoid and some actually think this is the end of the LMP1 class.

Plus, people continue to harp on the rubbish Audi/Williams rumours, if they actually had the time to read besides internet rumour fauxblogs perhaps they would understand what is actually going on in the future of F1. Perhaps a certain somebody can make up another rumour to scare us, he will probably claim Peugeot is planning on dumping sports cars and buying Renault F1, as this makes as much sense as the Audi/Williams rubbish.

[chernaudi]

LMP1 is gone from the LMS, per the LMS'/Peter Auto's own PR.

If the teams that I named had left the series and taken 1-2 other teams with them, they'd have had to either get rid of LMP1 anyways, or combined what remained of LMP1 with the LMP2 class, like the ALMS has done in the past.

For Peter and the LMS, they seem to have concluded that for 2012 that a LMP1 class for them doesn't make much sense.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Patrick Peter said an LMP1 class would only make sense with at least 6 cars entered. In the opening race of the LMS there were 5 LMP1s on the entry list.

1x Aston Martin, 2x Rebellion, 1x Pescarolo and 1x Quifel-ASM.
4 of them are likely to go WEC, the 5th has been considering moving to LMP2 again - if the rumours are to be believed.

[JAG]

Why are people outside of this forum so damn paranoid? Ive always been a nattering nabob of negativism, but some of this is just stupid

North American road racing is in a desperate struggle, prototypes, GT's, touring cars and single seaters are on an upward trajectory in the rest of the world. This causes confusion, speculation, and fails to take into account road racing is the only form of racing in this part of the world (aside from rally).

Of course in usual fashion many on other forums are worried, neurotic, paranoid and some actually think this is the end of the LMP1 class.

The P1 category is in a strong position, at the peak of the ALMS we had Audi and a handful LMP675/P2 competitors. Thanks to clever regs they provided good competition.

Today we have Audi, Peugeot and Aston, expected entries from Porsche and Nissan, strong rumours about Toyota and Jaguar, and established customer projects.

P2 is tailor made for privateers, it's only ever been a matter of time before this class booms. As with junior single seaters, the cream of the crop will look to to progress, the logical step being P1 in the WEC.

While NA racing see's the same teams juggling programs between the ALMS and GA, European racing tends to have an influx of new blood each season. You can be sure a major team or two, without current sportscar experience, will enter P1 due to the step up in profile the WEC provides.

Likewise, the LMS will lose some P1 entrants, but the level playing field P2 provides will see new entrants to the sport.

Plus, people continue to harp on the rubbish Audi/Williams rumours, if they actually had the time to read besides internet rumour fauxblogs perhaps they would understand what is actually going on in the future of F1. Perhaps a certain somebody can make up another rumour to scare us, he will probably claim Peugeot is planning on dumping sports cars and buying Renault F1, as this makes as much sense as the Audi/Williams rubbish.

TBH, I haven't heard anything about this link-up, the rumour is Williams developing the Jaguar P1, given they are involved in the XC-75 supercar. Rumours about Audi's withdrawel have been around since the days of the R8, but as VAG stated, there are only four arena's they can compete in, Le Mans, F1, WRC and DTM.

Audi use the DTM to entertain, the cars have little relevance to road cars other than looks. Like rallying before it, Audi use Le Mans to develop and promote road relevant technology. One day they may go to F1, but that area of the sport is becoming the domain of major sponsors and drivers, rather than manufactuers.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I personally think a GTC class such as this is a better idea than a GT3 class or especially a GTE Am class.

A dozen older GTE's has to be better than one-make cars as a well driven car can challenge Pro entrants.

It's not as if they can add XJR-15's, M1's or Diablo's to the grid, todays one-make cars mirror the models in GTE, only the general public will wonder why similar looking cars have stark performance differences.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I like the part about 5-6 rounds on famous European circuits... maybe when can at least get a German LMS round if we have to do without a WEC race...

Agree. To choose five places, I'd say Paul Ricard, Hockenheim, one in Spain or Portugal, one in Eastern Europe (Zeltweg, Slovakiaring, Russia) and the missing race of the WEC out of Silverstone, Spa and Italy (Monza, Mugello, Imola).

Originally Posted by AGD

I wonder if any WEC or LMS races will clash with ALMS races. Someone would be foolish to conflict the WEC with the ALMS, but who knows. ALMS and LMS have conflicted before, but I'm hoping that won't be the case.

Why so? It's like saying the British and Argentine touring cars shouldn't clash, or that the British and Spanish Superbikes shouldn't clash. Or do you expect Risi / Flying Lizard to show up at Algarve and Schnitzer / AF Corse at Lime Rock?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Why so? It's like saying the British and Argentine touring cars shouldn't clash, or that the British and Spanish Superbikes shouldn't clash. Or do you expect Risi / Flying Lizard to show up at Algarve and Schnitzer / AF Corse at Lime Rock?

There's not a ton of overlap at the moment, but there is some. The only team, as far as I can remember, that is running both the LMS and ALMS this year is the Genoa LMPC team, but some of the ALMS driving regulars have been doing races in Europe as well. Melo, Vilander, and Long come to mind. Plus, it makes things difficult for Hindy and crew to cover both races. On top of that, I enjoy having more racing weekends! That has to be the most compelling reason!

[Victor_RO]

http://twitter.com/#!/EnduranceInfo/...22215424933889

http://www.planetlemans.com/2011/08/...e-mans-series/

Quifel-ASM will not participate in the two remaining LMS rounds.

[The Badger]

Cant say I blame them really , they have had some crap luck this year .

Does this also mean that they will have to pay 30 grand for each race they miss ? That will be 3 races then , and 90 grand down the bog .

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Cant say I blame them really , they have had some crap luck this year .

Does this also mean that they will have to pay 30 grand for each race they miss ? That will be 3 races then , and 90 grand down the bog .

Don't think so, that's for ILMC entrants missing ILMC rounds as far as I'm aware, and Quifel-ASM has been LMS+Le Mans, no ILMC.

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Cant say I blame them really , they have had some crap luck this year .

Does this also mean that they will have to pay 30 grand for each race they miss ? That will be 3 races then , and 90 grand down the bog .

According to the LMS Supp Regs;-

Guarantee of participation in the entire Le Mans Series season for
all the competitors registered to the series on a season basis.
It is mandatory for a competitor registered on a full season basis to take
part to all the Le Mans Series races.
If a car registered for the entire Le Mans Series season does not take part
in one of the races, a €10 000 penalty fine will be applied for each race the
car has not taking part in (except case of force majeure at the Stewards’
discretion)
To guarantee the competitor participation in all the races of the 2011

calendar, a €10 000 guarantee will have to be given.



So, if, they were full season entrants it will cost em €10k per missed race.

[isynge]

DSC are reporting that RML have pulled out of the Estoril 6 Hours - down to the HPD package not being competitive.

Sad news, and troubling for what 2012 is likely to look like.

Most of all it cuts to the heart of the absurdities of cost capping and the absence of a level playing field. I've said previously that I don't think the HPD runners automatically had an entitlement to win, but allowing a car to be defined as cost capped simply due to the list price of a notionally available car really doesn't seem to have worked.

[JAG]

Wasn't a HPD on pole at Silverstone?

[carsten66]

So far also confirmation that there will be no television coverage from Estoril... what's up with MotorsTV?

[isynge]

Originally Posted by JAG

Wasn't a HPD on pole at Silverstone?

I've been struck at how much more Strakka have been able to find in the HPD package compared to RML - who previously I'd have consistently backed to be able to sort a car better than just about anyone else. They do say they struggled to get pace anywhere other than when optimised for qualifying (perhaps talking to Strakka's pace) but there's clearly more to it than this.

I'd also have seen AD Group as being more or less unaffected by a TV package - it's a classic B2B sponsor, who would get a lot more out of using their connection with racing technology, hospitality, and collateral wise than getting a car seen by casual Motors TV (or Eurosport) viewers.

Wearing my perhaps usual optimist hat, I'm hoping the low grid for Estoril is just a bit of end-of-season malaise rather than offering us a glimpse of the LMS in 2012.

[Deleted]

Nothing unusual about the grid size, just the regular LMS field we saw at Silverstone with few expections.

As we've seen from the last two races @ Algarve, Portugal isn't the best market for this series. But at least they were wise enough not to held this event at the middle of summer.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by isynge

I've been struck at how much more Strakka have been able to find in the HPD package compared to RML - who previously I'd have consistently backed to be able to sort a car better than just about anyone else. They do say they struggled to get pace anywhere other than when optimised for qualifying (perhaps talking to Strakka's pace) but there's clearly more to it than this.

I'd also have seen AD Group as being more or less unaffected by a TV package - it's a classic B2B sponsor, who would get a lot more out of using their connection with racing technology, hospitality, and collateral wise than getting a car seen by casual Motors TV (or Eurosport) viewers.

Wearing my perhaps usual optimist hat, I'm hoping the low grid for Estoril is just a bit of end-of-season malaise rather than offering us a glimpse of the LMS in 2012.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Nothing unusual about the grid size, just the regular LMS field we saw at Silverstone with few expections.

As we've seen from the last two races @ Algarve, Portugal isn't the best market for this series. But at least they were wise enough not to held this event at the middle of summer.

Last year the end seasons races was also "low" in entries. Nothing new under the sun there...

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by isynge

I've been struck at how much more Strakka have been able to find in the HPD package compared to RML - who previously I'd have consistently backed to be able to sort a car better than just about anyone else. They do say they struggled to get pace anywhere other than when optimised for qualifying (perhaps talking to Strakka's pace) but there's clearly more to it than this.

My understanding is that RML has never had access to what might be described as a "qualifying" tyre. Dunlop has a softer compound that can be used, but the HPD was developed around Michelin tyres, and Strakka has been able to achieve significantly better times in qualifying conditions as a result. Once onto race rubber, the performance of the two cars has been remarkably similar, and Ben Collins' pace on Sunday (before the AstroTurf incident!) demonstrated that RML's HPD could have been competitive, given the extra 40+ horsepower that the cost-capped cars enjoy, the -20 kilos, and shorter refuelling pitstops.

The signs are that, by 2012, these issues will have been addressed, although perhaps not via the route that the ACO might have hoped for. I suspect all LMP2 enties, whatever their underlying vintage, will be running cost-capped next year . . . including RLR's MG.

[Marcel ten Caat]

As long as you can provide a list with prices that stay below a certain maximum your car is cost-capped.

Needless to say some of the cost-capped cars will not be available for most teams.... I guess a cost-capped Zytek as Greaves has now will be available from 2015 or so if you order one now.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Stranger

As long as you can provide a list with prices that stay below a certain maximum your car is cost-capped.

Needless to say some of the cost-capped cars will not be available for most teams.... I guess a cost-capped Zytek as Greaves has now will be available from 2015 or so if you order one now.

Yes, of course. Inclusive of dorsal fin . . .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Stranger

I guess a cost-capped Zytek as Greaves has now will be available from 2015 or so if you order one now.

What's this?

The design team are in the office today finalising the Z12S (N/J/H) #LMP2.