Russo and Eric talk shop, and Eric gets 2 phone calls

[macdaddy]

I'm about to rant, and I'm sorry.

There are two team owners whom I would never, EVER, "welcome" back into the ChampCar paddock.

The ones who actually took the time to blow up the bridges before they burned them.

Somebody, very recently, put in a bid on Cosworth. Similar to what Judge Otte was confronted with, this person put more dollars onto the table than KK and GF did. Where did all of that come from? Suppose there were invisible partners? Also similar was the fact that they lost. What was that all about? Said team is not even running Cosworth engines!

End-Game is near. I can predict what we're gonna be talking about exactly one year from today.

And it's all good. There will be one series in 2007.

In my opinion, this Cosworth deal will end up being more of a major factor than we realize right now. Neither Honda nor Toyota wish to be the sole engine supplier to the IRL - they have little to gain from that exposure. The "bragging rights" lay with the race in Indy, said bragging rights would be negated if there was no competition. History may repeat itself, if one bails out the other may follow suit.

And then what have you got?
Nothing.
Tony never saw this coming. That's why there was a last-minute, big-dollar, effort to avert it.

And after hearing KK on WindTunnel the other night, let me tell ya that for the first time in a long time, I'm not afraid of the future!

Rant over.

[f1manoz]

And I concur with absolutely everything macdaddy!

Rome is burning, the Yen is about to end and the music is about to stop, and it's going to be that fellow (you know who I'm talking about) who is going to be left without a chair, a series and having left a great race in ruins.

And while there will be much laughter at his predicament, there will be sadness to think so much has been wasted by this feud over the past decade and more...

ChampCar forever.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Liz
I don't want Andretti or any of his drivers back, I don't want Helio back. We'll talk about Dixon and Manning, who are only in it for the money, when someone has money to pay them.

I was quite angry with some of the guys who switched at the time, especially people who weren't strong oval racers (Dixon and Kanaan certainly are, for example). But ultimately, people like Scott and Darren were offered competitive paid drives in the IRL, and had nothing on the table in CART. Gil and Helio for example would've had to break contracts to stay in CART, making it even less financially viable. A lot of those guys have had success in the IRL beyond what they could've expected in CART, so I'd say they've made good decisions.

I can certainly understand the hostility towards Andretti and Ganassi, but I also fele that if CART won back 2 major team owners next year (which I don't believe for one second that it will), it really would have the upper hand in the long-term, especially as engine supply won't be an issue again.

[Liz]

People who work only for a paycheque are not worth employing, in any form of business; they do not have your company's success at heart or indeed care about it at all except insofar as they can get maximum dough out of it. People who are working at a job they love, and who happily accept their pay for good work, are a different matter altogether.

As for Gil and Helio ... Gil made it clear that he was following his contract and when it became obvious that his life was in danger, he gracefully retired. He has been circumspect and well behaved at all times. Helio has gone completely over to the Dark Side. I would no longer believe anything he had to say, loyalty-wise.

And I agree with MacDaddy about the teams I would not welcome back -- and the drivers who took the extra effort to trash the series and the people behind it that made it possible for them to be what they imagine they are today.

Remember that this has been going on long enough now so the average race fan has quit whining about the traitors and deserters and has started forming attachments to the new world order -- to drag that batch back into it would not do any good and might in fact do harm by making the naive imagine that "now we'll be back to the 1990s and everything will be wonderful again." We need to stop worrying about the old, tired, former 'stars'; we need to stop being the Toronto Maple Leafs of the racing world, always spending big money on people who 'used to be somebody'.

That's my rant of the day.

[enemy-ace]

Welcoming back drivers is not necessary IMO as there are plenty of young talented drivers out there with which too put your hearts behind. Let's not forget that CART made or started the careers of the drivers in the IRL. The guard is changing and there is no point in bringing the old guard back. They can wind up their careers in the IRL as far as I am concerned. I would rather see more drivers from Europe and the Atlantics come into the series.
As for the teams. I think I would welcome any of them back. I never really liked Ganassi when he was in CART, so for me nothing will change. I do appreciate the fact that he brought Zanardi over though.
As for new teams. Whatever happened to Sigma?

[Kicking-back]

Any teams and drivers who want to race in the series are welcome to do so.

We need to rise above sniping and bitterness.

[codename_47]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Any teams and drivers who want to race in the series are welcome to do so.

We need to rise above sniping and bitterness.

Well they certainly didn't when they left, all those "Cart is dead" press statements really was pouring salt into an open wound.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but an elephant never forgets.....

That's the way the cookie crumbles.....(ok, I'll stop now! )

[GBoehm]

Sorry I've been gone for a while but I havent had the opportunity to use a computer in a long while. Anyway back to the topic at hand, the one man I would never welcome back is Penske, when I first started following CART I saw Penske signing autographs on hats, people were coming up tp him with the Penske hats and the Special Penske Sharpie. A little kid goes up to him with the Penske hat, Roger looks at the pen and notices it is not Penske Pariphnalia and hamds the kid back the hat and pen without an autograph. This is why I don't want to see Penske back in Champ Car ever!!!!

[StickShift]

uh-huh

[macdaddy]

Welcome back, but I find that story difficult to believe, GBoehm.
I've met Penske on a number of occasions, and he was always quite courteous.
And I didn't have the Penske Sharpie, either!

His is the team that I would MOST like to see come back into the ChampCar family. No offence to Morris or Adrian...

[The Snout]

One thing about teams that are in CCWS right now is that they want to work with CCWS for everyone benefit. I get the feeling from some teams that left that it's in their interests for CCWS to fail, in regards to contracts they have with some of their partners.

[Nicholosophy]

Seriously Folks...

I don't get to watch the series as here in Australia it is on too late for me. (No VCR either )

I would suggest that we shouldn't be saying that we would not accept certain teams back, because that means it just ends up like it was when they were all switching. We are in this mess because some people couldn't agree on something, started with some sniping and bickering, and it's now a full blown war.

Enough is enough I say. End the infighting with the two groups, and that's a start toward an endgame.

Neither OWRS OR IRL will be left standing at the end of the day. It will be whatever the two parties can agree too. Lets just hope that with the deals KK and GF are putting together, there will be more of the OWRS parts and less of the IRL parts. Afterall, there has to be good things within both series that would work well as one series...

*puts on the flak jacket and prepares for the enslaught*

[JohnSSC]

Well said, NikoGP! If it ever is game over for IRL then the resulting OWRS field could end up being larger and fairly formidable talent-wise when compared to any since the USAC split.

ANY team/driver/owner/mechanic who wants to come back should be able to without having to run some sort of gauntlet of self-appointed Guardians of the Series to do so.

Teams come and go for many reasons. We do not and never will be privy to what they are and so how can we judge the "rightness" of the decision.

There was this guy from the Middle East. Kind of a philosopher or something and he said one time: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Not bad to keep in mind.

IF the IRL folds and whatever teams come back to OWRS we, as fans should say: "Boy! Are we going to get some great racing now!" Think of it: talented teams coming back - automatic built-in rivalries = instant cut-throat head to head racing. Might have to get me Tivo for that!

[JohnSSC]

Well said, NikoGP! If it ever is game over for IRL then the resulting OWRS field could end up being larger and fairly formidable talent-wise when compared to any since the USAC split.

ANY team/driver/owner/mechanic who wants to come back should be able to without having to run some sort of gauntlet of self-appointed Guardians of the Series to do so.

Teams come and go for many reasons. We do not and never will be privy to what they are and so how can we judge the "rightness" of the decision.

There was this guy from the Middle East. Kind of a philosopher or something and he said one time: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Not bad to keep in mind.

IF the IRL folds and whatever teams come back to OWRS we, as fans should say: "Boy! Are we going to get some great racing now!" Think of it: talented teams coming back - automatic built-in rivalries = instant cut-throat head to head racing. Might have to get me Tivo for that!

[macdaddy]

I've just deleted five paragraphs because I was ranting again, but I'll let selective parts stand.

There will never be "unification" as we've become accostumed to thinking. There will be a track owner approching ChampCar asking for their participation.

ChampCar will say "Sure! Show us the money, we'll show you the cars!"

And engines. And tires.

And don't even bother thinking about sitting upon a "board of directors" because there isn't one.

Check.


...Mate?

[macdaddy]

One thing I neglected to mention was my reply to John.

ANY team/driver/owner/mechanic who wants to come back should be able to without having to run some sort of gauntlet of self-appointed Guardians of the Series to do so.

If it were me speaking...

ANY owner who wants to come back should be able to without having the fans boo them on the grid. And without having the sponsors notice that.

And then I'd insert a smiley.

Ganassi can concentrate on NASCAR, for all I care.
And MGF can concentrate on his ego.

[Snrub]

The IRL certain has some serious threats on the horizon, but I wouldn't declare them DOA quiet yet.

I don't know that it's quiet fair to tar and feather each and every driver who left the series. Things were awfully grim there for a while. If you were a driver with no contract and no interest in you, what choice would you make, at least for the short term?

Take a look at Fogerty. He won the 2002 Atlantics championship, he put in his dues. No interest. He sticks around, gets nothing and manages to get a ride half way through 2003 for the purposes of furthering the talents of the "more valuable commodity" on the team. He's then offered a top IRL ride and turns it down! He decides to come back and do Atlantics for another season. While doing that, the second guy who receieved the IRL offer took it, won the Indy 500, had a successful season and pulled in millions because the competition was such that the team he signed with had a huge advantage by happening to pick the right engine. Fogerty wins Atlantics again by fighting tooth and nail. He ends up having to give up on CC and signs up for a Grand Am seat. If anyone was owed anything, CC owed this guy a ride. He risked everything, gave up major success and got squat.

As was said earlier, CC made a star of all of the recent top talent that people hold up as "when CC was strong." Those guys came from somewhere first. Most were from Indy Lights, Atlantics or F3000. CC's has been through a rough patch, but ultimately if the series is going to be strong again it needs to get seats for top drivers from feeder series. From what I've seen of them race Forgerty, Valiante, Dalzeil and McDowell are fantastic drivers. I'm willing to bet that those guys can be those stars we speak of, but they have to get that shot. I think the series has mostly some very talented drivers right now and it needs some more.

[JohnSSC]

Well, macdaddy, I guess you and I compose our posts differently (I am not prone to use the emoticons, I reckon!)but I phrased my response as a reflection of posts within this thread.

Ultimately race teams and their drivers, engineers, etc will race where they choose too based on the funding available. It is pointless and indeed, couter-productive to try to have Team A or B deemed "unwelcome" because they did not sign some sort of "loyalty oath." In fact, based on Snrub's post above - and a very thought-provoking one at that - the current OWRS series participants have not exactly rewarded loyalty either, particularly in Fogarty's case.

Economics (unfortunately) will dictate who races where. I think as fans we need to spend more time enjoying the resulting product if it deserves it than trying to perceive the motivations and potential sinister plots hatched by the participants.

As far as the much-reviled Ganassi and Andretti teams however I feel about them personally i would think it was terrific to get 6 strong cars in the OWRS field and I would rather not have Ganassi focus on NASCAR.

Open wheel racing needs some focus right now!

[Kicking-back]

Two ships are heading for an iceberg.

The captain of each is looking at the other.

Neither sees the problem up ahead.

Both crash.

Game over.

[Dov]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
There was this guy from the Middle East. Kind of a philosopher or something and he said one time: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Not bad to keep in mind.

I agree with, John, 100%! We should allow AGR, Ganassi, Penske, and Rahal to return to Champ Car, but with that being said, I prefer this old saying: "Keep your friends close, your enemies even closer." - Sun Tzu

[macdaddy]

Although I realize that what you guys are saying is right, I'm finding it impossible to NOT let my emotions get in the way of my better judgement.

We're discussing possible team defections here, and to be honest I think it's a moot point in the first place. None of the major teams will be coming over this year, perhaps a smaller one might though...

[The Snout]

I wouldn't call better judgement letting teams back in with a history of following manufacturers right out of the series anyway. If we get manufacturers back there would be no sure thing that teams wouldn't leave again for the right price. No, I think we need more commitment.

I'd suggest a franchise system like F1, say 26 cars. That way teams can't keep coming and going on a whim. Might make them try to make their CCWS presence viable that way.

[Flatspot]

Team buy-in is a great idea Snout.

Originally posted by macdaddyANY owner who wants to come back should be able to without having the fans boo them on the grid.

I respectfully reserve the right to boo whomever I choose on the grid or on the street. Ganassi and Andretti would be at the top of my boo list. That said, they have every right to compete in Champ Car if they so desire.

Though I am not thrilled with the direction the new business model is going for stricly racing reasons, it makes tremendous sense from a profitablility and business perspective. I'd love to see Penske back and I wouldn't doubt if he will come (not this year but maybe 2006) as he is a businessman and will follow the dollar usually one step ahead of crowd.

[Snrub]

Ultimately I think the biggest problem with CC racing right now is that the teams aren't equal enough. When there were stronger teams the competition was closer. Combine that with the spec series and it would be very good.

Frankly I don't see a real advantage to having a Ganassi or Andretti who spat in everyone's faces come back, opposed to a current team getting better sponsorship and building a strong team. I've got to agree with what Liz said before about the kind of people you want around. I'm not going to hold a grudge towards the Fernandezes, but something certainly has to be said for the teams who stuck it out when things weren't certain. I wouldn't have a problem if Penske decided to come back. He was at least pragmatic about things. For two of the others, I'm not sure what the point is of staying in a series (2002) that you don't want to be in and ridicule while you're competing. Penske did things in a classier manner. Personally Ganassi really rubs me the wrong way. In the past he didn't use to have the outbursts, etc. that make him a very distasteful personality.

[macdaddy]

I think you quoted me out-of-context, Flatspot.
I was trying to be sarcastic.
Ganassi and MGF know full-well what the ChampCar fanbase thinks, and what their reaction would be. LOTS of boos, that's what.