Diluted Martini?

[deimh]

I was toying with the idea of buying a Chevron B19 or similar for the Martini Trophy, but in my eyes it seems to have lost some of its magic through expanding the grid to include more modern Supersports.

I'm not sure that its now worth forking out for the cost of the car and events now versus other series options. I know that grid numbers are needed to make events worthwhile, but I can see this potentially becoming a largely Supersports race down the line...

Also, I see a number of Martini eligible cars for sale recently and wonder the reason for this?

Anyone feel the same way?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by deimh

I was toying with the idea of buying a Chevron B19 or similar for the Martini Trophy, but in my eyes it seems to have lost some of its magic through expanding the grid to include more modern Supersports.

I'm not sure that its now worth forking out for the cost of the car and events now versus other series options. I know that grid numbers are needed to make events worthwhile, but I can see this potentially becoming a largely Supersports race down the line...

Also, I see a number of Martini eligible cars for sale recently and wonder the reason for this?

Anyone feel the same way?

Thought it was the Invitation Sports 2000 Cars that were more modern (Up to 1984)? The class for eligible closed cars (B8, 906, 47 etc) is up to 1971. The class structure looks well defined to me.

My neighbour at workshop runs some cars in Martini and Masters- main reason for not racing / selling one appears to be engine costs!

[John Turner]

The Sports 2000s were almost certainly added to the grid because not enough of the true Martini cars were entering. A great shame because there are more than enough of these pretty and quick cars around, some with iconic liveries, to regularly provide 30 car grids. Maybe, as Mike suggests, engine cost has played its part.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by John Turner

The Sports 2000s were almost certainly added to the grid because not enough of the true Martini cars were entering. A great shame because there are more than enough of these pretty and quick cars around, some with iconic liveries, to regularly provide 30 car grids. Maybe, as Mike suggests, engine cost has played its part.

When most Martini cars run BDG, FVC, BMW and the like the engine is going to be a big cost factor in running one. Then you have stuff like component crack test certificates to do before even considering tyres!

FYI John am having a crack at getting the MTX race ready this winter, with hope to get out next season. There is a particular reason for making it 2014, as there could be a race in Czech Republic for it.....

[john ruston]

A contributing factor is that people are doing F 2 that are the same as 2 litre cars but much less expensive?

The best Martini type cars do CER rather than domestic series.

[james c]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thought it was the Invitation Sports 2000 Cars that were more modern (Up to 1984)? The class for eligible closed cars (B8, 906, 47 etc) is up to 1971. The class structure looks well defined to me.

My neighbour at workshop runs some cars in Martini and Masters- main reason for not racing / selling one appears to be engine costs!

F2 is looking healthy, same engines, gearboxes and tyres. I'm not sure it's cost that's responsible. There's plenty Martini eligible cars running in CER which I'd imagine is more expensive.
Do you need crack test certificates for Martini?

[Mike Bell]

I haven't studied entry lists to confirm but would guess that CER competitors are mostly based in mainland Europe? Yes, more expensive, but the races are 60 minute, with two practice sessions. Peter Auto provide full hospitality as well.

You are correct that crack tests certificates aren't requested in Martini Regs. Didn't realise that. Assume most will have them however, as will be required for some other series.

F2, like some other open wheel formula, seems to be the where a lot of people have put their money in last few years. Maybe it's a 'Monaco' effect....

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

FYI John am having a crack at getting the MTX race ready this winter, with hope to get out next season. There is a particular reason for making it 2014, as there could be a race in Czech Republic for it.....

[john ruston]

CER is certain the upmarket version of Martini.

Some of major players are and have been British.

It's a way in to Le Mans Classic.

The Peter organisation are expensive put on a great show in most cases.

Mike,not sure what Monaco effect with F2? They don't race at Monaco and have never done so.

It seems to me that the most cost effective of all the quick ,proper driver,race classes is 70's F2 where cars are half the cost of their contemporary sports car brothers and exactly same speed.

You have to be a proper driver to play with cars at a competitive speed.

A typical Chevron B something or other sports car 200 K plus against race prepared F 2 85/100k.

Have a F2 B40/42 if anyone wants one!

[Mike Bell]

Monaco? I know nothing, John, and bow to your great knowledge of such events!

Just assumed some the pics have seen of 70s single seaters there showed F2s. F3 then?

[Dan Rear]

Yes, F3s only Mike. F2s were regulars, and great, at Pau, which I believe looks a little like Monaco in certain pics.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Yes, F3s only Mike. F2s were regulars, and great, at Pau, which I believe looks a little like Monaco in certain pics.

Iirc there's an interesting video on YouTube of F2 Historics about 8 years ago. Interesting in a "how the hell did they get away with that" sort of way.

Not easy to find though as there seem to be so many videos of racing at Pau ....

It must have been a very exciting event back in the pre-safety days.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by John Turner

The Sports 2000s were almost certainly added to the grid because not enough of the true Martini cars were entering. A great shame because there are more than enough of these pretty and quick cars around, some with iconic liveries, to regularly provide 30 car grids. Maybe, as Mike suggests, engine cost has played its part.

I think that's absolutely right. I also have a recollection that at one of the late season meetings Classic Clubmans Class A 1700cc Crossflow cars were also allowed to race because of low Martini entries, as well as being eligible for the Derek Bell single seater series. Must be one of the most cost effective ways of racing on the HSCC bill!

[p261brm]

I am afraid the 'dilution' was bound to happen, a sure case of history repeating it's self. The cost of prepping one of these cars for 25 minute sprint events is in most cases prohibitive. Engines yes, are expensive, so is the cost of repairing them after a rolling start becomes a 'must win race in the first corner' attitude. Maybe the full Martini distance of 500kms might curtail this enthusiasm, apart from what are some prety heafty entry/transport costs. Jenks wrote in motor sport in 1972, and I quote, 'Red Rose set a shining exampleto all those British teams who venture abroad to compete' a year later and we were out of business. Gone the smart 4 car transporter, whilst those with less ambitIous outfit's soldierd on with Transit and trailer for a few more years.
I hope the 'dilution' works, as it would be a great shame if the sight and now 'muffled' sound of these cars were in the UK at least, to disappear for good.

[deimh]

Originally Posted by p261brm

I hope the 'dilution' works, as it would be a great shame if the sight and now 'muffled' sound of these cars were in the UK at least, to disappear for good.

I would agree with your hope of keeping these 2l cars racing for all our enjoyment, but there is a risk in my eyes that the owners might decide to race elsewhere because they aren't that interested in racing against a Clubmans, et al.

Hope not...

[morninggents]

But if more of the 'proper' Martini cars entered there would be no need for Sports 2000 nor Clubmans grid fillers. Personally I like all three categories of cars but if the 2 litre sports racer boys want undiluted grids they must support what's being offered.

[GSD]

I write this as someone who competes regularly in Guards in an SRB Merlyn and as part of a team currently restoring an Osella for use in Martini or CER. So i do have some bias in my following post which talks about both of these.

There was a solution i saw on here sometime ago to fill the Martini grid.

Chevron B8's/16s etc are elligible, to move the post 66 invitation class from Guards to Martini would barely impact on thier race. That class has such an advantage over the rest of Guards that they run off into the distance anyway, and on laptimes it appears they would occasionally have some Sports 2000's to race against and less headache of negotiating the slower classes of Guards. A group of B8's/Ginettas/Lenhams might encourage a B16 or two and suddenly you have a very attractive large high quality grid, with two distinct yet competative races, 'Martini' cars up front and the B8's +s2000's behind.

This would also restore Guards to being period correct (which surely must be an aim of historic racing) and encourage people back out who didn't want to share a grid with the charging B8's. Recently Guards has been doing more 'splitting' of the Sports racer and GT grids, unfortunately while this works for the GTs as an SRB competitor my natural sparring partners are quick Elans, E Types, Corbras and TVRs.

A Guards grid without the post 66 cars suddenly mean all these different GT and SR cars are on the same pace and you have a legitimately open and exciting race at the front. The Martini grid would be larger and, other than not running for outright wins, the B8's race would remain largely similar, with even more people of similar pace to race against. If the Martini needs to be dilluted, then at least doing it this way retains the quality.

I can see the argument against though, Guards always gets good attendance and if it ain't broke why fix it. Plus would the B8's etc want to move from a chance of outright winning, or would they take thier racing elsewhere? I guess that could be somewhat offset by commentary/race reports/trophy presentations giving as much thought to that class as the winners. Plus you get the prospect of some real 'giant slaying' in the wet!

Anyway, just a few thoughts there. I love the HSCC and I would hate to see the Martini Trophy fail, though it must retain the quality as much as possible in my opinion. Bigger grids would encourage more 'Martini' cars to come out, but its an expensive car to prepare and run in a ten car race.

George. #52 Merlyn.

[p261brm]

[QUOTE=Mike Bell;3340101]
You are correct that crack tests certificates aren't requested in Martini Regs. Didn't realise that. Assume most will have them however, as will be required for some other series.
/QUOTE]

Should be a matter of course, with any form of motor racing, and even more so in historic, whether required or not at least every 2 years.

[deimh]

Originally Posted by morninggents

But if more of the 'proper' Martini cars entered there would be no need for Sports 2000 nor Clubmans grid fillers. Personally I like all three categories of cars but if the 2 litre sports racer boys want undiluted grids they must support what's being offered.

What you are suggesting makes perfect sense in an ideal world, but I question how it works in the real world:

The owners of Martini cars are individuals and have no ability to get other owners "to support what is offered".

Instead an individual turns up with his own Martini car and then decides whether to return based on his or her experience. Similarly, owners running in the CER, or those with their Martini cars up on blocks in the garage, will decide whether to join the party depending on how much fun it looks to be and who else is playing.

My fear that is the owners of Martini cars might not "enjoy" the experience of racing against a Clubmans and decide it more enjoyable to race against a 917 in the CER, or keep their cash and get a suntan in Bermuda instead.

Would it be better for the HSCC to make a bit less cash (in the short term?)and run smaller Martini-only grids? Or have they have taken the route to open up the field to:

a) increase race entry fees?
b) put on a better show for paying spectators?
c) help those without £150k to race against a B19?
d) ensure there is closer racing with more cars out there?
e) all of the above?

You guys decide as I don't know the answer, but I do know I'm personally less inclined to go buy a £150k Martini car if I'm going to be racing a grid full of Clubmans...

Interested in a poll on the 5 options above

[john ruston]

The CER races are seen to be much more upmarket than the HSCC.

If you look at the owners of 2 litre sports cars that regularly race in CER you cannot see them doing a British clubbie.

The F2 route is the best route.A good expanding series with cars precisely same as CER 2 litre at third to half the price.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by deimh

My fear that is the owners of Martini cars might not "enjoy" the experience of racing against a Clubmans and decide it more enjoyable to race against a 917 in the CER, or keep their cash and get a suntan in Bermuda instead....

...You guys decide as I don't know the answer, but I do know I'm personally less inclined to go buy a £150k Martini car if I'm going to be racing a grid full of Clubmans...

We are not talking about a "grid full" here, we are talking about a small hand full. It doesn't seem to worry the "Derek Bell Series" guys with their F5000, F2 and F Atlantic cars.

The standard of Clubmans driving is high, as is the driving in Sports 2000,perhaps the Martini guys are scared of being embarrassed? Are they racing enthusiasts who want to race their pride and joy or is perceived "image" or "prestige" the most important factor?

[RickT]

Hi All

There is another option which would be to add a class for over 2 litre cars ? It worked as a format for years as the old HSCC Historic GT Series.

There are a lot of Can-Am and prototype cars that are UK based and I am sure some would would join in. Most of them would not be able to beat the quick Martini cars too.

I know we would bring our McLaren out if given the chance, it is very difficult to run it anywhere nowadays without having to head into Europe and/or pay very high entry fees, so a few local HSCC events would be most welcome !

Cheers
Rick

[deimh]

Originally Posted by andy97

Are they racing enthusiasts who want to race their pride and joy or is perceived "image" or "prestige" the most important factor?

I spanner my own cars and spend as more time in a race weekend in my overalls than in my race suit - but I think that I'm in the minority.

So yes I would agree, prestige is important to many and this needs to be taken into account when trying to attract top cars. I'm not sure many (any?) in the Martini series get their hands greasy...