Do we need a new prototype championship?

[Speed-King]

With the growing number of prototypes in Europe and LMS being constantly oversubscribed, I wonder if it is time for a new Interserie-style championship, where those prototype teams that get turned down can race or those who want more than 6 races can drive some additional rounds.
GT-teams can go to FIA-GT or Intl. GT-Open, but for the Protos the LMS is about the only place to play...

Or should some of the smaller series like VdeV or Sportscar Challenge think about opening their races for LMP cars?

[minimangler]

We don't need another championship. What would be the point; in the end, entries would be split, and that's never good. Either that, or there would be a distinct gap in quality of field between the series. Not a good idea, imo.

[johntt]

Nope - the LMS is oversubscibed this year (again) 75 entries for ~50 places. What the ACO have said is that they will gove priority to LMPs as GTs can easily go to another championship as the various national GT championships across Europe will accept everything from GT1 to GT4 cars.

French GT uses GT1 cars, Nordic Supercar, Spanish GT and GT Open will take GT2 cars and I think Italian GT does as well.

You could revive the FIA Sportscar Championship as a support for FIA GT but strictly as a place for the protos that don't make it into LMS, but noones going to be interested in a championship thats for the dregs of another.

[Speed-King]

But how much priority can the ACO give the Prototypes?

They can't go much lower than a total of 18-20 cars for the two GT classes as the GT-fields would become dangerously sparse. So that leaves about 30 spots for the protos.
If you split them equally 15/15 for P1 and P2 that isn't that much:

If everything works out fine it'll look like this:
P1:
-2 Audi R10
-2 Peugeot 908
-2 Pescarolo
-1 Rollcentre-Pesca
-1 Charouz Lola/Pug
-2 Courage/Oreca
-1 Arena Zytek
-2 Creation AIM
-2 Epsilon Euskadi
----------------------------
No more room for Chamberlain, Lavaggi, Lister, RML, Barazi or RfH

P2:
-3 Porsche Spyder (Essex, Horag, Verschuur)
-2 Embassy
-2 Courage/Oreca
-2 Pesca/ Saulnier
-1 Bruichladdich Radical
-1 Barazi-Zytek
-1 Gulf-Zytek
-1 Binnie Motorsport
-1 Quifel ASM
-1 Pierre Bruneau
---------------------------------
left out: 2nd Radical, WR, Randacchio, Racing Box, Kruse, T2M.

So that's 12 or more cars left out just from the top of my head. And other constructors have announced interest in LMP-racing as well. With a market of just 30 cars for the whole of Europe the market is awfully small for these cars, and for example Lola will need some good luck to sell more than just one of their new Coupes on this side of the pond. Hardly a way to make a profit. In contrast to that there were a good number of championships in the 80s, where one could run Group C cars like the Interserie, the German Supercup or the British C2 championship. Without a bigger market for these cars I fear that a lot of constructors might not sell enough cars to make their business viable, and we'll end up with very few different chassis.

[gucom]

How about some no-championship-points races? This could mean less professional / ambitious teams would take part, leaving room for the "enthusiast" teams... kind of like how the Isle of Man TT used to be part of the motorbikes world championships in years long gone... With races preferably in countries with a relatively large fanbase (we're still talking about LMS here...), I suppose that'd be the UK and France for instance? Brands Hatch springs to mind

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

But how much priority can the ACO give the Prototypes?

They can't go much lower than a total of 18-20 cars for the two GT classes as the GT-fields would become dangerously sparse. So that leaves about 30 spots for the protos.
If you split them equally 15/15 for P1 and P2 that isn't that much:

If everything works out fine it'll look like this:
P1:
-2 Audi R10
-2 Peugeot 908
-2 Pescarolo
-1 Rollcentre-Pesca
-1 Charouz Lola/Pug
-2 Courage/Oreca
-1 Arena Zytek
-2 Creation AIM
-2 Epsilon Euskadi
----------------------------
No more room for Chamberlain, Lavaggi, Lister, RML, Barazi or RfH

P2:
-3 Porsche Spyder (Essex, Horag, Verschuur)
-2 Embassy
-2 Courage/Oreca
-2 Pesca/ Saulnier
-1 Bruichladdich Radical
-1 Barazi-Zytek
-1 Gulf-Zytek
-1 Binnie Motorsport
-1 Quifel ASM
-1 Pierre Bruneau
---------------------------------
left out: 2nd Radical, WR, Randacchio, Racing Box, Kruse, T2M.

So that's 12 or more cars left out just from the top of my head. And other constructors have announced interest in LMP-racing as well. With a market of just 30 cars for the whole of Europe the market is awfully small for these cars, and for example Lola will need some good luck to sell more than just one of their new Coupes on this side of the pond. Hardly a way to make a profit. In contrast to that there were a good number of championships in the 80s, where one could run Group C cars like the Interserie, the German Supercup or the British C2 championship. Without a bigger market for these cars I fear that a lot of constructors might not sell enough cars to make their business viable, and we'll end up with very few different chassis.

There are some large scale assumptions made in that post -

Firstly, as has been seen very often, the ACO can decide whatever they like on numbers and split - It's likely that we'll see a reduction in GT1 numbers anyway so that reduces the pressure there. The ACO will certainly favour a larger prototype entry at the expense of GT2 if the opportunity arises.

Your "No room for" commentary on LMP1 and LMP2 contains some teams that have no intention of entering the classes you presume - counts out at least one team that has entered all but one race held under the Le Mans Series banner (and has won an LMP title into the bargain), includes several cars that haven't seen the light of day yet in a notional list to replace them, misses out at least one pre-announced programme and potentially several as yet unannounced.

Finally though why would anyone want to invest in a new prototype of the complexity and expense of an LMP1 or LMP2 for a second string (at best) championship?

A 21st century Interserie might help the second hand market but I genuinely can't see it being any commercial assistance to Lola, Oreca or the rest. The Championships you mention existed in a very different environment - With almost every European country now possesing a national GT racing championship (plus 4 x Europe wide championships at various levels), with VdeV also attracting large grids and those rules spreading too . Where's the attraction in spending massive money for a relatively meaningless Championship?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

A 21st century Interserie might help the second hand market but I genuinely can't see it being any commercial assistance to Lola, Oreca or the rest. The Championships you mention existed in a very different environment - With almost every European country now possesing a national GT racing championship (plus 4 x Europe wide championships at various levels), with VdeV also attracting large grids and those rules spreading too . Where's the attraction in spending massive money for a relatively meaningless Championship?

Upon writing I'm noticing I'm running away with my ideas here, so forgive me!

What if the organisers from VdeV and the ACO had a little meeting? VdeV has spread into a couple of countries now and the concept seems to be popular. How much more popular would it become for both teams and constructors, both small scale and large, if VdeV were to allow LMP2 entries?

It provides a base for new teams and (relatively) unknown constructors to move up towards LM and those who prefer to stay put still get that option. If incentives were offered, such as P2 championship winners getting an LM grid slot, the championship would not be meaningless? One example is that it would have provided Radical with a place to try out their SR9 before taking it to LM and the LMS - if it proved to be good then more customer interest might have arisen?

Regarding VdeV's large grids, well didn't Britcar split it's classes into two races to accomodate more GTC/GT3 cars? Or at least move a lower class into a lower-spec support race? Then allow some kind of endurance event where large grids can be happily supported and allow them all to mix together at least once a year?

It's wild speculation and not likely to happen, I'm just wondering if it would be a viable option rather than creating a whole new series...

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

if VdeV were to allow LMP2 entries?...

Not too sure that would fit as the new 4Ltr engines in LMP2 are twice the size of the largest in VdeV! The Ligier I was priveliged to ride in was V. quick but I'm sure the LMP2's are another story!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

There are some large scale assumptions made in that post -

Firstly, as has been seen very often, the ACO can decide whatever they like on numbers and split - It's likely that we'll see a reduction in GT1 numbers anyway so that reduces the pressure there. The ACO will certainly favour a larger prototype entry at the expense of GT2 if the opportunity arises.

They don't favour protos over GT cars at Le Mans, after all. While I think that they can add some more protos, they can't scale down the GT ranks endlessly. A single GT class (as proposed by AM, Chevy, Porsche and Ferrari) might help in this case, though.

Your "No room for" commentary on LMP1 and LMP2 contains some teams that have no intention of entering the classes you presume - counts out at least one team that has entered all but one race held under the Le Mans Series banner (and has won an LMP title into the bargain), includes several cars that haven't seen the light of day yet in a notional list to replace them, misses out at least one pre-announced programme and potentially several as yet unannounced.

Well, I am no insider, so I have to assume. According to what you said, I've put a few cars on that list that don't belong there, but forgot a few others, so maybe the numbers aren't all-that wrong.

Finally though why would anyone want to invest in a new prototype of the complexity and expense of an LMP1 or LMP2 for a second string (at best) championship?

Who says 2nd string? When the International GT Open was started, a lot of people were pretty sure that the series would be a flop, as there were already enough GT championships out there. Just two years later, the GT Open has the biggest GT-grids in Europe. Who's saying that a new prototype series couldn't be succesfull/meaningfull either?

A 21st century Interserie might help the second hand market but I genuinely can't see it being any commercial assistance to Lola, Oreca or the rest. The Championships you mention existed in a very different environment - With almost every European country now possesing a national GT racing championship (plus 4 x Europe wide championships at various levels), with VdeV also attracting large grids and those rules spreading too . Where's the attraction in spending massive money for a relatively meaningless Championship?

Even if it was mostly a series for 2nd hand LMPs: The possibility to resell their cars would make it easier for the teams in LMS to buy/built a new car more often and thus stay competitive. At the same time it would help the constructors, if teams bought new cars more often.

The Championships you mention existed in a very different environment - With almost every European country now possesing a national GT racing championship (plus 4 x Europe wide championships at various levels), with VdeV also attracting large grids and those rules spreading too . Where's the attraction in spending massive money for a relatively meaningless Championship?

The same could be said for the LMS, if it wasn't for the Le Mans-invites. In the end only very few teams have a chance to obtain one of these invites, yet it feels like there are new LMP-projects announced every other week.

[cptkablamo]

I think we need another one just as much as American Open Wheel needs two series...

I would say the LMS needs to consolidate - maybe a better option would be to have open entries to the race weekend, a cut off after quali and for those knocked out, can have a non-championship race or something like that on that same weekend...

[johntt]

What is VdeV?

btw - Is the idea of a single GT class that the manufacturers are proposing that GT1 and GT2 are merged and the cars are built to GT2 rules? Would make sense as they are both tube frame chassis rather than heavily modified road cars like GT3/GT4

That would be good as then GT3 can be the second GT class at LM/ALMS/LMS.

[Hugewally]

http://www.vdev-uk.com/

http://www.vdev.fr/New_en/accueil.php

[ss_collins]

VdeV is mega - but the grids are pretty porky in the french series already

laptimes from Spa this year
LMP2 best - Radical SR9/Judd - 2m10.531
LMP2 worst - Lucchini/McLaren - 2m20.563
VdeV CN best - Norma M20/Honda - 2m27.197
Vdev Sprint - Norma M20/Honda - 2m23.565

So you see they can be a bit close but it would be very hairy. VdeV will happily race with GT2/3 though

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

With the growing number of prototypes in Europe and LMS being constantly oversubscribed, I wonder if it is time for a new Interserie-style championship, where those prototype teams that get turned down can race or those who want more than 6 races can drive some additional rounds.
GT-teams can go to FIA-GT or Intl. GT-Open, but for the Protos the LMS is about the only place to play...

Or should some of the smaller series like VdeV or Sportscar Challenge think about opening their races for LMP cars?

Do you mean another series with the same dung heap rules, or are you speaking of another series with its own set of totally different rules?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Get a LMP3 series up and running, with VdeV style cars (Ligier etc), and have them race at LMS weekends. Allow anyone who wants to race in the LMS and try to make the grid with set numbers for each class. If a class is undersubscribed, distribute those amongst other classes to get a full grid. Any GT2 or LMP2 entries that doesn't make the grid you kick down into the LMP3 championship. Races on Sundays, broadcasted on MotorsTV ahead of the main race. You get to race even if you failed to make the LMS race, and you're granted some TV coverage. Still don't know what to do about LMP1's and GT1's though.

[Another Bob]

Something that always has been at the back of my mind, and this is the perfect forum to ask it.

Why does Le Mans limit itself to 50 entries?

Its a 13 km track, a 24 hour race, basically flat and open, is the track extremely narrow or is the ACO using this to make it exclusive?

Raising the number of entries would solve the problem.

[Purist]

Le Mans was limited to 50 entrants because of limited garages. The "temporary" garages were replaced with more full ones, so as of the 2007 race, they have gone back up to 55. Pit/garage space has always limited the entry; Le Mans has never had more than 60 starters.

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Get a LMP3 series up and running, with VdeV style cars (Ligier etc), and have them race at LMS weekends. Allow anyone who wants to race in the LMS and try to make the grid with set numbers for each class. If a class is undersubscribed, distribute those amongst other classes to get a full grid. Any GT2 or LMP2 entries that doesn't make the grid you kick down into the LMP3 championship. Races on Sundays, broadcasted on MotorsTV ahead of the main race. You get to race even if you failed to make the LMS race, and you're granted some TV coverage. Still don't know what to do about LMP1's and GT1's though.

Nice idea and alot more interesting than the dull 206 spiders!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Do you mean another series with the same dung heap rules, or are you speaking of another series with its own set of totally different rules?

Same technical rules, but maybe shorter races.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Do you mean another series with the same dung heap rules, or are you speaking of another series with its own set of totally different rules?

Would it make you happier if all prototypes were forced to run stock block v8s, bob?

The regulations are pretty fine by me; an oversubscribed headline series proves that.

And In response to that long list of cars; I don't think the ACO would let 3 spyders race if there were manufacturers not being allowed to; ie Lucchini. The Lucchini should (hopefully would) get priority over a third porsche.

[The Badger]

It would be nice to see them start the GT2 entries from someplace like the signal pits . The track is big enough to take more cars , but im not sure if its worth the expense of constructing once a year pits down there .

[Another Bob]

Over subscription is great for the race as it proves everybody wants a piece of the action, and they obviously do.

I wish a heap more sports car series around the world suffered that affliction.

For a solution how about more lead in races around the world with these race results going to select the 50 final entrants at Le Mans? Bit like a world series probably only half a dozen races, but at various tracks around the world.

That way everybody gets to race, if they wish they could race at all the lead in races, so even if they end up not selected for Le Mans they still have raced and achieved exposure.

It would further promote Le Mans as well.

[duke_toaster]

Here's my suggestion.

Tech regs

Keep the current class structure, or merge the GT classes.

Run several "Le Mans Qualifiers" events (three in North America, three in Europe, one in Asia) before LM24 each year. Each qualifier awards so many places to the top so many in each get their tickets to Le Mans.

These LMQ events would be part of the LMES/ALMS as well.

For all the events, there would be a number of one hour races to see who gets on the grid and in what position. One for the GTs, One for LMP2s and LMP1s.

For each sprint race, there will be a mandatory re-fuel, and each driver must be in the car once. To make it fair, two car teams must make another change (I.E. A hands it over to B in stop 1, B hands it back in stop 2).

This year, the European qualifiers would have been Monza and Valencia (plus another), the US would be St Pete, Reliant Park and Miller (don't include Sebring as it's too long for a qualifier and Long Beach was rather short).

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Would it make you happier if all prototypes were forced to run stock block v8s, bob?

The regulations are pretty fine by me; an oversubscribed headline series proves that.

And In response to that long list of cars; I don't think the ACO would let 3 spyders race if there were manufacturers not being allowed to; ie Lucchini. The Lucchini should (hopefully would) get priority over a third porsche.

If you have READ any of my posts, you will know I do not want anyone to be FORCED to do anything. (Or have the engines emasculated by twinky equalization rules)

The regs, as is, are a contrived farce, and another series with the same rules would be waste of time .

Now if the IMSA would simply tell the ACO to go away, we might, and I do emphasize only MIGHT, get something with some pizazz.
Bob

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The regs, as is, are a contrived farce, and another series with the same rules would be waste of time .,

If they really are such a farce then why are so many people entering? You can dislike the rules as much as you like but if it results in more entries than grid slots then someone must be doing something right. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Now if the IMSA would simply tell the ACO to go away, we might, and I do emphasize only MIGHT, get something with some pizazz.
Bob

That's IMSA's problem and applies only to America (yes, there are other countries in the world) - Europe happens to be brimming with entries, and as a result Le Mans entry numbers are sky high every year. With so many new LMP projects being announced, and the new closed cars looking pretty nice, I think your nitpicking.