BTCC Races 28,29,30 Brands Hatch GP

[Jiiiiiiim]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

indeed

and let's face it, Goff was blocked by Shedden for his maiden win at the very same track...

Also I am sure Goff would of known that Flash didn't need to pass him as he was in a good enough position, so fair play for putting up a fight. Those saying Flash was gifted it don't forget he did have to pass a lot of cars some didn't make his life hard, but cars he had the pace to reel them in, they didn't all slow down and park up waving him through! JP did all he could in that race, but the championship is run over 30 rounds so take a look back over all the other rounds where the championship was 'won' and 'lost'.

Still maintain it was a great end to another excellent season.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Andrew Jordan has been getting a lot of flack for letting Shedden through but take a look at the situation from his point of view, and weigh up the pros and cons.

He was 7th on the road at the time. His 5th in the championship was assured - he couldn't score enough points to take 4th and with Tordoff behind him he could drop to 6th. Likewise the team and manufacturer championship results weren't going to change regardless of where he finished. He couldn't even do anything to effect his teammate's position. So in effect there is nothing to be gained by keeping Shedden behind him, and nothing to lose by letting him pass.

You could argue it's the difference between a 7th or 8th place finish, but frankly for someone with that much experience it's a nothing result. Hardly something that's going to get pride of place on his CV.

It would be a different story earlier in the year but not at this point in the championship when there's nothing left to play for. Jordan and Shedden have a good amount of mutual respect so why not help out. He has been around long enough to know what comes around goes around, and who knows, the situation may be reversed one day.


Different situation for Jack Goff. He is still very early in his touring car career and podium finishes are still in short supply, so I would expect him to fight like hell for another one.

Originally Posted by Andrew Jordan

Ahead of my MOT tomorrow I appreciate all the messages saying my indicators work ok. Saves me reversing upto a garage door to check

I agree with you, imagine someone taking Shedden out in an overly agressive defence. Better to let him through than decide a championship like that fighting for 8th position. It's just not worth it. Also, Shedden wasn't exactly holding back during the last few laps. I'm no supporter of Shedden, but he deserved the championship. The difference was four points in the end, now JP says it was bad luck (punctures etc.) but in my eyes he lost these when he decided to start from the pits (twice?) rather than go for it and take a few points. Shedden hardly held back but went for every gap there was to pick up all the points he could get.

What no one seems to notice is the impressive performance by Jackson. Two wins and a second place show that it isn't just a good engine in that car. I really hope to see him and the team back full time next year.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by auroan

Well, it's disappointing to see that a championship can be won on friendships within the paddock rather than skilled driving.

But those friendships are made or lost on the back of on track behaviour. So in effect Platos punt to pass tactics have come back to haunt him and cost him the title - you could argue that if he was a cleaner racer then the drivers may not have given Shedden such an 'easy' run through the field.

Originally Posted by auroan

Team work within a team yes... no problem, that is what a team is there for.

But as a spectator it's disapointing seeing a result fixed... because people weren't driving to the max of their ability against every other driver.

The end result was not the 'fix' - the 'fix' was Plato not being excluded from race 1 and not starting race 2 from the back. The only reason not to do that was to keep the championship fight going. In the end he got his just desserts. As a spectator I want to see close, clean racing - Plato crosses the line too often for my liking and gets away with it. I'm quite happy to see him get his comeuppance at the hands of his peers like this.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Tja

JP says it was bad luck (punctures etc.) but in my eyes he lost these when he decided to start from the pits (twice?) rather than go for it and take a few points.

That's a good point - that could well have made a difference, I can understand people doing that if they're out of the championship running but Plato undoubtedly sacrificed some points in those races - would it have made the difference? No way of knowing for sure but it's possible.

Originally Posted by Tja

What no one seems to notice is the impressive performance by Jackson. Two wins and a second place show that it isn't just a good engine in that car. I really hope to see him and the team back full time next year.

Jackson did well, obviously qualifying was made easier with no ballast on but he drive well all weekend. The Motorbase car is good but you can see when it's got the ballast on it's not much different in performance to either the Type R or the VWs (if it was all down to the car then Cole would have been further up the field). Hopefully Motorbase can do a full season next year.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Tja

The difference was four points in the end, now JP says it was bad luck (punctures etc.) but in my eyes he lost these when he decided to start from the pits (twice?) rather than go for it and take a few points.

As they say, you make your own luck.

I think Knockhill was where he lost the title. Threw away any chance for points in race 1 only to get an average grid slot and average result in race 2. I can't help if he hadn't started from the pits be wouldn't have done much better in race 2 but would have picked up points in race 1.

[steve_r]

It goes to show that one day you cows come home to roost. All the moaning and dirty dirty driving will come back to haunt you. I'm not a huge Shedden fan, but am absolutely delighted that he won the title, and I'm presently surprised that some of the drivers did not make life too tricky for Shedden. That said, he drove the wheels off that Honda in race 3.

[MrAero]

So now the season is over, what's people's opinions on the new race 2 grid rule? Clearly it had some unintended consequences over how people managed their first race, but overall I thought it was a success.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That's a good point - that could well have made a difference, I can understand people doing that if they're out of the championship running but Plato undoubtedly sacrificed some points in those races - would it have made the difference? No way of knowing for sure but it's possible.

Andy Priaulx always said that every point counts when it came to his wtcc titles. I'm full of praise for Shedden, someone who I have never really taken to outside of the car, but he drove it flat out every time he got in it.

[Akrapovic]

I love BTCC. It's brilliant fun. But anyone saying that Shedden being allowed to pass isn't real racing or it was all a fix needs to take a good look at BTCC in general. This is a series where Race 2s grid is decided by fastest laps during a 20 minute race. This might as well be a random grid. Race 3 is decided by pulling bingo balls out of a big ball with a special guest. This is a series which does throw safety cars for debris, just when it happens to suit the race. This is the series which ignores rules violations if it would mess too much with the title. Let's not sit and pretend that the BTCC is the pinnacle of racing and sportsmanship.

So a couple of cars not putting up any sort of fight, to allow a popular driver to win the title over an unpopular driver who regularly attacks others, both on and off track? Yeah...I've no problem with that under the BTCC umbrella.

[Greem]

That's as good a summary of this era of the BTCC as I've seen. Very well put.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is a series which does throw safety cars for debris, just when it happens to suit the race. This is the series which ignores rules violations if it would mess too much with the title. Let's not sit and pretend that the BTCC is the pinnacle of racing and sportsmanship.

Thats your conspiracy theory based opinions.

SC for track debris is not a way of closing up race... its for safety. This is what happens when track debris isn't cleared of a track



http://www.itracing.net/post/1191401...dicks-car-hits

And lets not kid our selves on the bumping and barging in the BTCC. Thats what's it's all about, thats why we watch the BTCC. Jason's tap at the end of cooper straight was not enough to push sheddon wide. Infact if you watch the in car of sheddon he actually drove the car wide. (wether that was to avoid being overly defensive against plato to avoid a repeat of Jordans damage a few years ago at the same corner is another question).

And if Plato's punt was so bad, why aren't people screaming to have sheddon reprimanded for his much bigger punts into the back of Menu in race three. Sheddon almost turn Menu around.

Some people seem to see only what they want to see.....

[Akrapovic]

I never said that every SC is for fake debris. I said it DOES do it. And it does. We have seen odd safety cars for no real reason. And that's fine. That's what BTCC does. It doesn't need to be taken as a bad thing. It's no different to reversing the grid based on picking bingo balls out of a tub.

Touring Car racing is NOT all about bumping and banging. Bumping and banging and door smacking is fine. But BTCC specifically has a rule against punting to pass in the form of the 3 strike rule. So the series does not want cars punting others out of the way. Jason DID hit the Civic 3 times. You can pretend Shedden drove wide and whatever, but Jason DID make contact with the car 3 times, and any other race and any other driver would've been penalised. He should NOT be penalised for the first 2 hits, because those are strikes 1 and 2. He SHOULD be penalised for the 3rd strike.

Meanwhile, Shedden should've been given a strike for his hit on Menu. he may have been or may not have been, I don't know. But Shedden and Plato should've had the same rules applied. If they had been, then Plato would've been penalised.

It isn't rocket science. Hitting cars on purposes is not ok. Plato did it 3 times and got away with it. Shedden did it once, which according to the rules is not a penalty.

Sorry if you don't agree. Sorry if you think I'm just picking what I want to see. But those are the facts. That's who hit who and what the rules are.

[auroan]

You need to look at the footage again. Sheddon hit Menu more than just once.

[Akrapovic]

lol, there was one incident. If we're counting 2 taps in a single incident as multiple strikes then Jason will have so many penalties that he'll be starting from the pit lane every race for the next few years.

You can argue details if you want. The fact is, Jason sacrificed points earlier in the season, and made so many enemies that even his own team mates weren't willing to help him. That's how he lost the championship.

[BtccLee]

http://www.teambmr.co.uk/team-bmr-statement/4590812069

Whatever you think of the drivers, this team is pure class. How Motorsport should be done, works or independent.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

The matter has been settled according to the team. So that's that then.

[850Estate]

Must say, whilst I agree he should've moved over in the race, I don't like the way Aron Smith has been treated here. Surely some things are better kept to the Motorhome?

In saying that, he could be onboard with this and it could be a clever ploy to shut up the media circus it's created.

[SteveLevin]

Aron Smith did nothing I wouldn't expect given the rocky relationship he and Plato have had -- to be honest, given some of the past words, I think they've gotten along pretty well.

That said, I was disappointed at James Cole and Andy Jordan for just pulling aside and making it that easy (others did as well, but they stood out in my mind). I totally understand Matt Neal helping his teammate, but so many people in race 3 decided to just 'get out the way' that was a bit ... well, it felt like the fun got taken all out of it.

That's my two cents.

Steve

[BillWiskins]

Simplistic as it might seem, I feel like drivers in your team who have no hope of winning the championship - whereas you do - should do what they can to help, and drivers not in your team should race you as if it were any other battle for position.

But, that isn't how it works

I knew from Warren Scott's interview that there was a bit more than a 'failure of communication' (or whatever he referred to it as) going on - you could see he was avoiding having to say that Aron flat out ignored his orders. If there had been no prior arrangement - fine, carry on. But if (as we now know) there was an agreement beforehand, it's just poor form to disobey your team.

[pimmy]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

Simplistic as it might seem, I feel like drivers in your team who have no hope of winning the championship - whereas you do - should do what they can to help, and drivers not in your team should race you as if it were any other battle for position.

Bingo! That's exactly how I feel. Race 3 was more like a charity prize giving than an actual race.

[Sodemo]

It wouldn't surprise me if the clerk of the course or Alan Gow himself told the other drivers to not get involved with the championship battle, IE no funny business. Of course the interpretation of that is open to debate, but I've heard it said before "drivers have been told not to interfere with the championship battle" etc.

[fer312t]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

If there had been no prior arrangement - fine, carry on. But if (as we now know) there was an agreement beforehand, it's just poor form to disobey your team.

Agree 100%...If your not going to abide by team orders, have the nerve to say so clearly upfront, and take the consequences - at least then people know where they stand. Don't say one thing, and then - when the moment comes - flake-out, plead ignorance or attempt to weasel your way out of it.

I suspect - even if Team's line is this is all done and dusted - this could still prove to be a pretty costly move, all for a fairly inconsequential 2nd position...

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So a couple of cars not putting up any sort of fight, to allow a popular driver to win the title over an unpopular driver who regularly attacks others, both on and off track? Yeah...I've no problem with that under the BTCC umbrella.

Jason is much more popular than you'd like to think

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by fer312t

Jason is much more popular than you'd like to think

Apparently not popular enough for other drivers to give him a hand. And certainly not popular enough stop the round of cheering and clapping when he goes off at Knockhill. But hey, who am I to argue?

[VIVA GT]

/\ /\ Exactly that!
Over the years Mr Plato has ruffled the feathers of a number of his fellow BTCC drivers, it looks like payback time happened at Brands Hatch.
What goes around (pun intended) comes around.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

It wouldn't surprise me if the clerk of the course or Alan Gow himself told the other drivers to not get involved with the championship battle, IE no funny business. Of course the interpretation of that is open to debate, but I've heard it said before "drivers have been told not to interfere with the championship battle" etc.

On TTT this week Alan Gow was very clear on this - in the drivers briefing on Saturday morning the drivers were all asked (paraphrasing from memory) to show respect for the championship contenders and not get in their way.

The fact that certain individuals chose not to do this anyway tells me a lot about how well liked JP is in the paddock, regardless of how popular he might be amongst some groups of spectators.