TLs, TLs, TLs???

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by raymond

Not true, can I have your dollar?

Remember I was saying that on the 'basis of actions'
Can someone enlighten me how ST are slowing the process?

As for giving you a dollar Crunch? Sure, why not. The competitor is always the one who pays after all

[Brian Budd]

I see there are still comments being made on this forum about NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd and the sanctioning of V8 Supertourer rules and regulations.
I’m sorry to rock some of your conspiracy theories with the facts and truth around these matters but as I have explained to you Guys previously NZV8 Touring Cars Limited was a shelf company set up by TMC in 2002 to protect the name for future use by the Sport in some form or other in the future.
When MSNZ purchased the IP for the new TLX car the company was taken over by MSNZ for that purpose with the shares to be transferred to the owners of the new TLX car. That process is currently underway.
Earlier this year when NZV8 Ltd/VEEGA was taken over by Directors who were also on the Board of V8 Supertourers, the competitors competing in the NZV8 Championship expressed a desire to be the authors of their own destiny and sought to take over NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd as the company to manage the cars and parts business associated with the MSNZ NZV8 Championship.
The new Directors of that Company Ian Booth, Mike Ross, Kevin Shaw and Ross Cameron are managing the future the TLX and TL Category cars. MSNZ, once it has been fully paid for the cost of the IP purchase, will remain as a shareholder to protect its interest in the IP.
I note discussion on this forum around V8 Challenge Cup and the fact that it still exists as an additional TL Class.
Challenge Cup was set up by Supertourers as a Support Class to their show. The Sport understands that agreement was reached between the Directors of VEEGA and V8 Supertourers last year that V8 Challenge Cup would be incorporated back into the NZV8 Category if VEEGA dropped the legal action against certain Directors of V8 Supertourers. So instead of pointing fingers at MSNZ, who has no involvement in this matter, I suggest that you seek clarification from Greg Lancaster, Lyall Williamson and Stephen Gillard who we understand were involved in that agreement.
MSNZ is working very closely with V8 Supertourers on this matter and progress is being made.
To clarify other comments around Sanctioning and MSNZ Championships, a Championship cannot be awarded to a category whose rules and regulations have not been sanctioned. In other words Sanctioning is the first step in the process.
By the way “Club Racer” I have not as yet seen the written evidence you claimed to have which supported your comments about issues the FIA had with MSNZ and other allegations.
Brian Budd
General Manager
MotorSport NZ

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

I see there are still comments being made on this forum about NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd and the sanctioning of V8 Supertourer rules and regulations.
I’m sorry to rock some of your conspiracy theories with the facts and truth around these matters but as I have explained to you Guys previously NZV8 Touring Cars Limited was a shelf company set up by TMC in 2002 to protect the name for future use by the Sport in some form or other in the future.
When MSNZ purchased the IP for the new TLX car the company was taken over by MSNZ for that purpose with the shares to be transferred to the owners of the new TLX car. That process is currently underway.
Earlier this year when NZV8 Ltd/VEEGA was taken over by Directors who were also on the Board of V8 Supertourers, the competitors competing in the NZV8 Championship expressed a desire to be the authors of their own destiny and sought to take over NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd as the company to manage the cars and parts business associated with the MSNZ NZV8 Championship.
The new Directors of that Company Ian Booth, Mike Ross, Kevin Shaw and Ross Cameron are managing the future the TLX and TL Category cars. MSNZ, once it has been fully paid for the cost of the IP purchase, will remain as a shareholder to protect its interest in the IP.
I note discussion on this forum around V8 Challenge Cup and the fact that it still exists as an additional TL Class.
Challenge Cup was set up by Supertourers as a Support Class to their show. The Sport understands that agreement was reached between the Directors of VEEGA and V8 Supertourers last year that V8 Challenge Cup would be incorporated back into the NZV8 Category if VEEGA dropped the legal action against certain Directors of V8 Supertourers. So instead of pointing fingers at MSNZ, who has no involvement in this matter, I suggest that you seek clarification from Greg Lancaster, Lyall Williamson and Stephen Gillard who we understand were involved in that agreement.
MSNZ is working very closely with V8 Supertourers on this matter and progress is being made.
To clarify other comments around Sanctioning and MSNZ Championships, a Championship cannot be awarded to a category whose rules and regulations have not been sanctioned. In other words Sanctioning is the first step in the process.
By the way “Club Racer” I have not as yet seen the written evidence you claimed to have which supported your comments about issues the FIA had with MSNZ and other allegations.
Brian Budd
General Manager
MotorSport NZ

Thank you for that response Brian, however to be fair I don't think you have in fact gone to that level of detail before, so your perspective on it is welcome.

I would like to ask one big question though, and that is, why did MSNZ get involved in the TLX programme and use members' funds to purchase the IP? Was this not taking sides against the then directors of Supertourers? Surely if MSNZ had been truly impartial, they would have not become involved in the spat between Supertourers and Messrs. Tulloch et al?

In fact, the advent of Supertourers was a ready-made and quickly available solution to a problem that had needed solving for a while in V8 racing, which was a cost effective solution to an ageing TL fleet, with decreasing numbers every season.

Within 18 months of Supertourers being announced as a concept, they had a grid of 16 shiny new cars, along with a decent amount of marketing.

By the start of season 2 of Supertourers, they had a grid of 20 cars including international drivers and by then a pretty good support class set as well.

So instead of embracing the change when it happened, from the public eye it would appear that in fact MSNZ, while not directly coming out in opposition to Supertourers (oh, apart from some fairly rash comments made on the radio by Shane Harris early on) have not exactly gone out of their way to support them either.

So you can see why competitors, club members and fans alike have become rather disillusioned with the sport's administration at times. Sure, many of the rumours are just that (it was rumoured that you yourself told someone at Manfeild that you were going to, "destroy Supertourers," but we will take that with a grain of salt), but MSNZ has often done nothing much to help dispel them.

And let's not even get on to talk about why Supertourers were not only not allowed to race at the April V8SC event, but also weren't even allowed to show their cars off within the complex.

So I am interested to see what your response is to ALL of those issues above.

Thanks in advance.

[Swedish Brick]

Gee, the truth turns out to be quite different to what certain people were saying on here. What a surprise.
GB you have it a little wrong. You make it sound as if MSNZ went out and did something after the advent of the STs. However you know that's not accurate.
Also a lot of the "involvement" has been shown to be lies, rumours and false.

[Mark Petch]

[QUOTE=Brian Budd;3255281][SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]
Earlier this year when NZV8 Ltd/VEEGA was taken over by Directors who were also on the Board of V8 Supertourers, the competitors competing in the NZV8 Championship expressed a desire to be the authors of their own destiny and sought to take over NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd as the company to manage the cars and parts business associated with the MSNZ NZV8 Championship.


Brian,

FYI. Greg Lancaster, Lyall williamson and Stephen Gillard, were not Directors of V8 Supertourers, in fact Greg Lancaster had absolutely no role in V8 Supertourer Limited, he was and still is the owner of two TL cars through his company Autotek Limited, and quite rightly a concerned shareholder of VEEGA.

He, Lyall Williamson and Steve Gillard, stood for election, and were overwhelmingly elected to office on their stand to align VEEGA/NZV8's Ltd with V8ST.

[Brian Budd]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Thank you for that response Brian, however to be fair I don't think you have in fact gone to that level of detail before, so your perspective on it is welcome.

I would like to ask one big question though, and that is, why did MSNZ get involved in the TLX programme and use members' funds to purchase the IP? Was this not taking sides against the then directors of Supertourers? Surely if MSNZ had been truly impartial, they would have not become involved in the spat between Supertourers and Messrs. Tulloch et al?

In fact, the advent of Supertourers was a ready-made and quickly available solution to a problem that had needed solving for a while in V8 racing, which was a cost effective solution to an ageing TL fleet, with decreasing numbers every season.

Within 18 months of Supertourers being announced as a concept, they had a grid of 16 shiny new cars, along with a decent amount of marketing.

By the start of season 2 of Supertourers, they had a grid of 20 cars including international drivers and by then a pretty good support class set as well.

So instead of embracing the change when it happened, from the public eye it would appear that in fact MSNZ, while not directly coming out in opposition to Supertourers (oh, apart from some fairly rash comments made on the radio by Shane Harris early on) have not exactly gone out of their way to support them either.

So you can see why competitors, club members and fans alike have become rather disillusioned with the sport's administration at times. Sure, many of the rumours are just that (it was rumoured that you yourself told someone at Manfeild that you were going to, "destroy Supertourers," but we will take that with a grain of salt), but MSNZ has often done nothing much to help dispel them.

And let's not even get on to talk about why Supertourers were not only not allowed to race at the April V8SC event, but also weren't even allowed to show their cars off within the complex.

So I am interested to see what your response is to ALL of those issues above.

Thanks in advance.

I don't believe that purchasing the IP was taking sides. You have to remember that the V8 Supertourer started out as the replacement car for NZV8s, a MSNZ Championship the rules and technical regulations for which are owned by MSNZ. There is no reason to go over the issues that resulted in the formation of V8 Supertourers but the result was that NZV8s was left in a position of no longer having its car of the future. The category embarked on the development of another version the TLX. MSNZ, to protect the Championship which it owned and which had been successful for many years using TL cars, to protect the investment that car owners had in those cars and to protect the IP of the new car from a repeat of the events that lead to the Supertourer, purchased the IP on the basis that the cost would be recouped by way of a levy on each chassis sold. It also needs to be remembered that there was an on-going commitment of Championship status from the Sport to NZV8s, as with any championship category, a right that cannot be removed overnight or in the space of a year or two.

MSNZ has supported V8 Supertourers in a number of ways. It may not have always agreed with the actions taken that resulted in the formation of the Supertourer category and the effect that that had on a well-established V8 Championship, but MSNZ has permitted Supertourer events, provided Officials and other race personnel for Supertourer events, homologated the chassis under a category type homologation and latterly started working with Supertourers to Sanction their rules and regulations in preparation for Championship status, that work is complex and ongoing.

It also needs to be acknowledged that the early Directors of V8 Supertourers were of a mind that they didn't want to have anything to do with MSNZ, that placed the Sport in a position of being between a rock and a hard place and also the issues were between NZV8/VEEGA and Supertourers not with MSNZ as the governing body.

Thank goodness that the world moves on and that there is now a healthy relationship between MSNZ and V8 Supertourers which means that we can put all that history behind us and move forward. Next race season will see, I'm sure, some positive movement forward in the V8 scene.

You comment on the fact that V8 Supertourers were not at the Australian V8 Supercar meeting in April and this has been debated over and over again on forums such as this.

NZV8s had been calendared by MSNZ as a Championship Round at that meeting early in 2012 when the 2013 Race Calendar was set. It was early in 2013 that Supertourers came to the Sport and asked to be at Supercars. By that stage support classes had been agreed between Australian V8 Supercars and MotorSport New Zealand (four in total including NZV8s) for the ITM 400. The matter was discussed with the promoter Australian V8 Supercars Ltd who owns the ITM 400 event and at the end of the day there was no appetite for two New Zealand domestic V8 support categories on the programme. If Supertourers were there NZV8s would not be. Given the fact that MSNZ had declared an NZV8 Championship in early 2012 which included the IT400 as one of the rounds NZV8s had to be there. The situation in 2014 may well be different.

Brian Budd
General Manager
MotorSport NZ

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Gee, the truth turns out to be quite different to what certain people were saying on here. What a surprise.
GB you have it a little wrong. You make it sound as if MSNZ went out and did something after the advent of the STs. However you know that's not accurate.
Also a lot of the "involvement" has been shown to be lies, rumours and false.

So why do you take one person's word over another, without any of your "evidence" that you purport to treasure so highly?

Mark has already shown part of Brian's statement to be inaccurate.

And with respect, you don't know what I know.

[Swedish Brick]

Because GB the truth makes a lot more sense and fits events a lot better than your stories. And Brians comments reflect true events. Unlike your continued rubbish. Found any proof of mega dollar trailers yet? I thought not.
Personally I'm beyond sick of your sabotage attempts on the sport. Its people like you that are the problem. Not your imagined conspiracys. Its time for you and your lot to pull your heads in and let those working for good to get on with it.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Because GB the truth makes a lot more sense and fits events a lot better than your stories. And Brians comments reflect true events. Unlike your continued rubbish. Found any proof of mega dollar trailers yet? I thought not.
Personally I'm beyond sick of your sabotage attempts on the sport. Its people like you that are the problem. Not your imagined conspiracys. Its time for you and your lot to pull your heads in and let those working for good to get on with it.

I think you are living in the wrong universe Warwick. I don't recall ever mentioning mega-trailers, and I am not attempting to sabotage the sport - like you, I am just after the truth. Not your "believe anything as long as it comes from an official source" truth, the ACTUAL truth. Which is a bit different to what you think, I suspect.

Do you believe everything John Key says? I expect so.

Not that I am doubting Brian's version of events, in fact it is great that he is on here and answering questions. That is one of the best ways to stop swirling rumours from swirling too much.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

I don't believe that purchasing the IP was taking sides. You have to remember that the V8 Supertourer started out as the replacement car for NZV8s, a MSNZ Championship the rules and technical regulations for which are owned by MSNZ. There is no reason to go over the issues that resulted in the formation of V8 Supertourers but the result was that NZV8s was left in a position of no longer having its car of the future. The category embarked on the development of another version the TLX. MSNZ, to protect the Championship which it owned and which had been successful for many years using TL cars, to protect the investment that car owners had in those cars and to protect the IP of the new car from a repeat of the events that lead to the Supertourer, purchased the IP on the basis that the cost would be recouped by way of a levy on each chassis sold. It also needs to be remembered that there was an on-going commitment of Championship status from the Sport to NZV8s, as with any championship category, a right that cannot be removed overnight or in the space of a year or two.

MSNZ has supported V8 Supertourers in a number of ways. It may not have always agreed with the actions taken that resulted in the formation of the Supertourer category and the effect that that had on a well-established V8 Championship, but MSNZ has permitted Supertourer events, provided Officials and other race personnel for Supertourer events, homologated the chassis under a category type homologation and latterly started working with Supertourers to Sanction their rules and regulations in preparation for Championship status, that work is complex and ongoing.

It also needs to be acknowledged that the early Directors of V8 Supertourers were of a mind that they didn't want to have anything to do with MSNZ, that placed the Sport in a position of being between a rock and a hard place and also the issues were between NZV8/VEEGA and Supertourers not with MSNZ as the governing body.

Thank goodness that the world moves on and that there is now a healthy relationship between MSNZ and V8 Supertourers which means that we can put all that history behind us and move forward. Next race season will see, I'm sure, some positive movement forward in the V8 scene.

You comment on the fact that V8 Supertourers were not at the Australian V8 Supercar meeting in April and this has been debated over and over again on forums such as this.

NZV8s had been calendared by MSNZ as a Championship Round at that meeting early in 2012 when the 2013 Race Calendar was set. It was early in 2013 that Supertourers came to the Sport and asked to be at Supercars. By that stage support classes had been agreed between Australian V8 Supercars and MotorSport New Zealand (four in total including NZV8s) for the ITM 400. The matter was discussed with the promoter Australian V8 Supercars Ltd who owns the ITM 400 event and at the end of the day there was no appetite for two New Zealand domestic V8 support categories on the programme. If Supertourers were there NZV8s would not be. Given the fact that MSNZ had declared an NZV8 Championship in early 2012 which included the IT400 as one of the rounds NZV8s had to be there. The situation in 2014 may well be different.

Brian Budd
General Manager
MotorSport NZ

A number of good answers there Brian, thank you. I think some would take issue with a couple of your comments, but as you say things move on, so let's hope, for the good of the sport, that they do.

I and many others remain to be convinced that MSNZ should own any championships or perform any function other than as a governing body, but as you say, let's see what 2014 brings.

And thank you for fronting up and answering my questions, it is a good way of allaying fears and correcting any misconceptions that are out there.

[Swedish Brick]

Maybe it was coffee carts you mentioned, you however know full well exactly what I mean. You (and others) have constantly thrown accusations around which have pretty much all turned out to be false, exaggerated or misrepresentations of the truth. As Woolly said it looks bloody awful from outside and it very embarrassing to NZ motorsport.
If you want to bring politics into it, some on here would fit right into Labours muck raking crew. Truth be dammed just as long as we win.

The best way to stop swirling rumours, is to not repeatedly post them in the first place when 99% of the time they are blatantly BS.

Seriously, who exactly are you and what is your agenda? You are clearly not just a fan as you have said before.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Seriously, who exactly are you and what is your agenda? You are clearly just a fan as you have said before.

Please stop. Yes you. Just stop. Or find a new hobby. Or actually buy a race car and get involved. Anything please but endless carping

[Swedish Brick]

Sorry for sticking up for the truth Icarus. You will of course note that truth and clarifications have come out and again, I was right.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Sorry for sticking up for the truth Icarus. You will of course note that truth and clarifications have come out and again, I was right.

I don't think you have ever been right, Brick.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Maybe it was coffee carts you mentioned, you however know full well exactly what I mean. You (and others) have constantly thrown accusations around which have pretty much all turned out to be false, exaggerated or misrepresentations of the truth. As Woolly said it looks bloody awful from outside and it very embarrassing to NZ motorsport.
If you want to bring politics into it, some on here would fit right into Labours muck raking crew. Truth be dammed just as long as we win.

The best way to stop swirling rumours, is to not repeatedly post them in the first place when 99% of the time they are blatantly BS.

Seriously, who exactly are you and what is your agenda? You are clearly not just a fan as you have said before.

Aha! So you DO believe everything Key says - figures.

[Jerico]

I do think some people are over playing their hand just a touch. It is starting to get a little over powering. Nine times out of ten when I come on here for a look I see the same name. I did learn as a boy there are time to make a statement and there are times to sit back and shut up. People do get sick of hearing the same voice over and over again...

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Remember I was saying that on the 'basis of actions'
Can someone enlighten me how ST are slowing the process?

As for giving you a dollar Crunch? Sure, why not. The competitor is always the one who pays after all

Obviously Icarus you dont know I'm a competitor as well.

[Alpina107]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

MSNZ, once it has been fully paid for the cost of the IP purchase, will remain as a shareholder to protect its interest in the IP.

Brian, will MNZ be "fully paid" for the actual cost of the IP ($70k) or the current valuation of $41.4k, which includes a $28.6k write-off of members funds?

Secondly, can you please clarify your statement that MNZ "will remain as a shareholder". If MNZ has been paid up, what ongoing interests would it need to protect?

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

To clarify other comments around Sanctioning and MSNZ Championships, a Championship cannot be awarded to a category whose rules and regulations have not been sanctioned. In other words Sanctioning is the first step in the process.

As well as the sanctioning, don't the rules also state that a Gold Star championship must have at least 15 entrants at 75% of its rounds - an level that hasn't been achieved for V8's over the last two seasons? So why the inconsistency of applying rules to one party and not the other?

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Aha! So you DO believe everything Key says - figures.

Well don't just respond to a single part of my post.

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Seriously, who exactly are you and what is your agenda? You are clearly not just a fan as you have said before.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Alpina107

As well as the sanctioning, don't the rules also state that a Gold Star championship must have at least 15 entrants at 75% of its rounds - an level that hasn't been achieved for V8's over the last two seasons? So why the inconsistency of applying rules to one party and not the other?

Remember the nine page REVIEW OF RACING IN NEW ZEALAND 2013 was discussed at the race commission meeting and included this statement

18g) Minimum competitor numbers for championship classes has been discussed in length and it has been agreed that there really is no “correct” arbitrary minimum number that can be applied across the board as some classes can provide satisfactory entertainment, excitement and racing credibility than others. Therefore no minimum number has been recommended, although a minimum number applicable to a specific class should form part of that classes championship agreement with the sport;

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I and many others remain to be convinced that MSNZ should own any championships or perform any function other than as a governing body,

I disagree with that.
MSNZ should definitely own the NZ Championship titles, but then pass on or on-sell the rights to these titles to whomever can do the best job for those championships. Otherwise you will end up with a nightmare and championships that mean nothing. i.e: NZ champion for Red 3 door Toyota’s numbered 32

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by CDM

I disagree with that.
MSNZ should definitely own the NZ Championship titles, but then pass on or on-sell the rights to these titles to whomever can do the best job for those championships. Otherwise you will end up with a nightmare and championships that mean nothing. i.e: NZ champion for Red 3 door Toyota’s numbered 32

True, or MSNZ Enduro Trophies for classes that only have 3 entrants...

[Southern Man]

More from the REVIEW OF RACING IN NEW ZEALAND 2013

PROMOTION OF CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES
19. It is widely recognised that MotorSport NZ ideally should not be involved in the active promotion of its championship classes and MotorSport NZ itself is on record as stating that it does not wish to be the promoter of its championship series.
20. The demise of MotorSport Promotions Ltd (previously The MotorSport Company) past season saw MotorSport NZ forced into the position of having to coordinate the traditional championship series in conjunction with each circuit promoting their round.
21. This situation has worked to carry the series through what was a very difficult time as a stop-gap measure and for the future it is desirable that an independent promoter(s) take on the responsibility for promoting the sport’s championship classes.
RECOMMENDATION:
22. MotorSport NZ tenders the promotion of its championship categories for interested parties to present their offerings to the sport and a promotional agreement document to be agreed upon.



I sure wish that some of you people would go and talk to your car club and actually find out what they have been informed of and ask why the info has not been passed onto their membership

[Club racer]

'Thou doth protest too much'? Mr Budd. Glad to see I struck a raw nerve. More to come.

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

I see there are still comments being made on this forum about NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd and the sanctioning of V8 Supertourer rules and regulations.
I’m sorry to rock some of your conspiracy theories with the facts and truth around these matters but as I have explained to you Guys previously NZV8 Touring Cars Limited was a shelf company set up by TMC in 2002 to protect the name for future use by the Sport in some form or other in the future.
When MSNZ purchased the IP for the new TLX car the company was taken over by MSNZ for that purpose with the shares to be transferred to the owners of the new TLX car. That process is currently underway.
Earlier this year when NZV8 Ltd/VEEGA was taken over by Directors who were also on the Board of V8 Supertourers, the competitors competing in the NZV8 Championship expressed a desire to be the authors of their own destiny and sought to take over NZV8 Touring Cars Ltd as the company to manage the cars and parts business associated with the MSNZ NZV8 Championship.
The new Directors of that Company Ian Booth, Mike Ross, Kevin Shaw and Ross Cameron are managing the future the TLX and TL Category cars. MSNZ, once it has been fully paid for the cost of the IP purchase, will remain as a shareholder to protect its interest in the IP.
I note discussion on this forum around V8 Challenge Cup and the fact that it still exists as an additional TL Class.
Challenge Cup was set up by Supertourers as a Support Class to their show. The Sport understands that agreement was reached between the Directors of VEEGA and V8 Supertourers last year that V8 Challenge Cup would be incorporated back into the NZV8 Category if VEEGA dropped the legal action against certain Directors of V8 Supertourers. So instead of pointing fingers at MSNZ, who has no involvement in this matter, I suggest that you seek clarification from Greg Lancaster, Lyall Williamson and Stephen Gillard who we understand were involved in that agreement.
MSNZ is working very closely with V8 Supertourers on this matter and progress is being made.
To clarify other comments around Sanctioning and MSNZ Championships, a Championship cannot be awarded to a category whose rules and regulations have not been sanctioned. In other words Sanctioning is the first step in the process.
By the way “Club Racer” I have not as yet seen the written evidence you claimed to have which supported your comments about issues the FIA had with MSNZ and other allegations.
Brian Budd
General Manager
MotorSport NZ

[promax]

Originally Posted by Club racer

'Thou doth protest too much'? Mr Budd. Glad to see I struck a raw nerve. More to come.

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