OK, so where do we go from here?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes. The cars are anemic and pathetic and the crowds which are not paying to watch are small, and the racing about as pleasurable to watch as someone using an electric drill.

Changing FE to F1 will kill the audience and will be the death knell of the formula. f2 would, I think be by far the better option from the point of drawing an audience.

Have you watched any of the recent races?

Personally I like Formula E, but if you watch the races from the perspective of "THIS ISN'T FORMULA 1 DAMNIT" you will always be disappointed.

Shift your perspective to "this isn't yet attempting to be anything other than its own series" and it makes a lot more sense. If they'd planned out their strategy to mirror F1, racing on the same circuits, trying to court all the same corporates then F1 fans would have murdered it for trying to be F1.

They do something different, in a different way, in different cities and locations (Mexico City & Monaco excepted) and... F1 fans murder it for not trying to be F1.

The world is going to be very different once this crisis subsides. Who knows what will happen to F1? The FIA and F1 management don't, that's for sure. Not yet.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes.

I think we are talking about scenarios in which F1 has abandoned its shoes. Would a version of FE be better than our best memories of F1? No. But we are hypothesizing the collapse of current F1 under its own weight (a real and recognized problem) with the fallout of this pandemic being the trigger to bring the house of cards down. What reforms after the dust settles?

And as mentioned above, while not for everyone, FE is not that bad and does have manufacturer (i.e. money) support.

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes.

That was never there intention if you follow the upgrade path they outlined at the beginning. They have a huge advantage over F1 and that is they can run a race meeting in a city with just about no noise from the competing cars and therefore no complaints from those who do not like motor racing and yes those people do actually exist. The format and speed of an F1 race does not fill every motor sport enthusiast with joy either which may surprise some people. My son competed for many years and never during that time did he even bother looking at an F1 race and wouldn't have a clue who was who in it. Formula E has a place in motor sport, some like it and some don't.

[chillibowl]

also Merc's F1 budget, for example, is something like 50 times larger than that of a FE team.

if F1 teams moved to FE and operated at a lower level (say half of what they currently spend so in keeping with F1's proposed budget cap goals), that additional investment would surely advance FE dramatically.

is that a good thing or not is of course a different debate but for myself i am curious to see what that sort of investment could do for an all electric series and electric technology overall.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that additional investment would surely advance FE dramatically.

FE would have to avoid the usual cycle the kills most series. Which is is that more money (usually manufactures) triggers a ramp up in cost and complexity. Eventually it collapses, and something replaces the old system. Rinse and repeat. It is a chaotic time for top level prototype racing as it is in the middle of this cycle as the prior system is dying and nascent ideas are struggling to survive and be the next new thing.

My next comments are not friendly to those of us who like the engineering competition that exists today in F1, but successful series probably need to be run by an iron fist and with more and more spec components, cost caps, etc.

Richard

[Armco Bender]

I think Liberty will quietly sell F1 to Indycar before years end.
Then we'll see some decent racing.

[S griffin]

It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to have F1 cars to have Indycar style technical regs, after all they work on any circuit

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

FE would have to avoid the usual cycle the kills most series. Which is is that more money (usually manufactures) triggers a ramp up in cost and complexity. Eventually it collapses, and something replaces the old system. Rinse and repeat. It is a chaotic time for top level prototype racing as it is in the middle of this cycle as the prior system is dying and nascent ideas are struggling to survive and be the next new thing.

My next comments are not friendly to those of us who like the engineering competition that exists today in F1, but successful series probably need to be run by an iron fist and with more and more spec components, cost caps, etc.

Richard

Formula One did always had its own boom-and-bust cycle, but no earlier than in 2000's the legislator felt itself compelled to change regulations to reduce costs. Since then, various innovations were banned, homologation rules were introduced and parts became standardized. However, the call for further budget reductions remained.

This raises the question whether even more standardization would actually reduce costs. In case Formula One would become a (semi-)spec series and budgets would actually be reduced then, the series could end update like any other spec series, hence with empty grandstands and very little attention by the general public.

[S griffin]

Another thing is teams will always spend what they have got. If you restrict their spending in one area, they’ll spend it in another. The thing cost cutting does is it helps the smaller teams, by not spending on areas that can put them out of business

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

This raises the question whether even more standardization would actually reduce costs.

IMHO, no and I dont think it ever has been about reducing costs. Its been about teams agreeing to not spend money on X but rather Y. The amount of money spent is based upon how much money you are able to spend. I know that sounds like circular logic, but I am trying to say... you spend what you have, you have whatever your sponsors (or financial benefactor) gives you. This is why cost caps are imperative. That is how you limit how much is spent. Another way is to continue to spend until it collapses.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

In case Formula One would become a (semi-)spec series and budgets would actually be reduced then, the series could end update like any other spec series, hence with empty grandstands and very little attention by the general public.

Regarding empty grandstands and the general public not caring, isn't that where we nearly are now? Spec components is not to blame for the decline in motorsports as most fans dont care where the parts come from!

Richard

[Adam43]

Some do and some don't. Make it spec. and you lose those that do care. Keep variety and those that don't care are in the same position so you keep them.

I have minimal interest if it is spec.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IMHO, no and I dont think it ever has been about reducing costs. Its been about teams agreeing to not spend money on X but rather Y. The amount of money spent is based upon how much money you are able to spend. I know that sounds like circular logic, but I am trying to say... you spend what you have, you have whatever your sponsors (or financial benefactor) gives you. This is why cost caps are imperative. That is how you limit how much is spent. Another way is to continue to spend until it collapses.

As if disallowing teams to finance a remedy for their uncompetitive car and hence leaving them in hopeless situation, would makes things better.


It probably explains why a 'double kill' was originally planned for 2021, as a budget cap was planned alongside new 'GP1' technical regulations.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Regarding empty grandstands and the general public not caring, isn't that where we nearly are now? Spec components is not to blame for the decline in motorsports as most fans dont care where the parts come from!

Richard

I cannot think of any spec series being as popular as Formula One.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

As if disallowing teams to finance a remedy for their uncompetitive car and hence leaving them in hopeless situation, would makes things better.

Two things for you to think about..

1. Why isn't your solution working for Williams?
2. Why should the sport be about who has the biggest budget?

Originally Posted by Pingguest

It probably explains why a 'double kill' was originally planned for 2021, as a budget cap was planned alongside new 'GP1' technical regulations.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I cannot think of any spec series being as popular as Formula One.

What point are you trying to make?

Richard

[Armco Bender]

I cannot think of any spec series being as popular as Formula One.

Come down this end of the world V8 Supercars is 1000 times more popular than F1.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Come down this end of the world V8 Supercars is 1000 times more popular than F1.

And NASCAR ratings destroy F1 in the US, think there are some single Cup races with more viewers than the entire F1 season. Hell Indy can often cable to cable airing out draw F1 as well. It's all about local markets. Guessing none of the 3 draw as well across all markets as F1, and Indy can't seem to leave the US market well at all yet.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Some do and some don't. Make it spec. and you lose those that do care. Keep variety and those that don't care are in the same position so you keep them.

I have minimal interest if it is spec.

For all intents and purposes it is spec now and with the next set of regs it will move further in that direction when they are implemented. The old days of wheeling a new design featuring stuff the engineer thought up with no one going bananas or protesting are long gone. Toe the line or don't race is today's mantra. Everyone went nuts when Mercedes showed off DAS, why I don't know as it is within the regs. It is an indication that no one likes new thinking if F1.

[midgetman]

F1 could be popular as a spec series simply BECAUSE it is F1 and the marketing clout it has. You don't see young drivers saying "I aspire to be an F2 driver" because it's not the top step.

As long as it has the grandest prizes, the fastest cars, it will get the top coverage and the best drivers will flock to it. The fact that all those cars are the same won't matter a fig to the vast majority of fans.

But it's down to the coverage. In recent years the WEC had the wildest tech yet the smallest following. No coverage = few fans = no prestige. People don't care about tech or spec, they want the star drivers, the racing and the razamataz. F1 will have that whatever as long as there is mass market interest in "the sport".

I hate that BTW. People refer to the sport of F1. Surely the sport is motor racing, the branch is F1. We don't talk about "the sport of Premier League."

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Casper

That was never there intention if you follow the upgrade path they outlined at the beginning. They have a huge advantage over F1 and that is they can run a race meeting in a city with just about no noise from the competing cars and therefore no complaints from those who do not like motor racing and yes those people do actually exist. The format and speed of an F1 race does not fill every motor sport enthusiast with joy either which may surprise some people. My son competed for many years and never during that time did he even bother looking at an F1 race and wouldn't have a clue who was who in it. Formula E has a place in motor sport, some like it and some don't.

This is a point that is extremely relevant.Even WEC mandates noise levels and if I am honest I have to say that seeing an LMP1 at high speed in comparative silence is very impressive.I have never been in line with those who say more noise=better and I have never doubted that if you asked any engineer in the business if they would rather have an extra 5 horsepower or an extra 5 decibels,the choice would be power.Maybe if silencing to WEC levels was introduced it would be easier to organise races in city centres.As things stand I can foresee an increase of objections to the level of resources devoted to making two cars go round a circuit a couple of dozen times a year.Not only from the likes of Greta Thunberg but the current global paralysis is going to weaken the cashflow of sponsors and even the spending cap may not go far enough to prepare the series for the new economic realities.


I have seen Ross Brawn's views about the ever more ostentatious hospitality centres and the fleet of trucks that each of them requires.Can anybody defend the current situation?


One change I would like to see would be the prohibition of engine warmers.We have tyre warmers for a while longer,but they will be banned fairly soon.So why don't we encourage the use of engines that can actually be started from cold?It might encourage the development of engines for the real world with a higher level of efficiency and it would reduce the freight bill too.


Perhaps most controversially,why don't we eliminate the requirement for pit stops?Allow them by all means but leave the freedom for teams to try a non-stop race if they feel that it could pay off.Come to that,why not allow teams to mix and match the tyres?It used to happen in the Goodyear era that now and then 3 C'c and a B on one rear would be a good combination.

[S griffin]

F1 just wouldn't be F1 if it was a spec series. We have enough of those in other series. Just keep the variety in Grand Prix racing, that's part of it

[Greem]

69 posts and we're hitting the inevitable "What is Formula 1, anyway?" question.

I propose a variation of Godwin's Law - The Ten-Tenths Law:

Originally Posted by Ten-Tenths Law

As a discussion on an Internet motorsport forum about Formula 1 grows longer, the likelihood of the discussion ending up being about "What is Formula 1, anyway?", increases.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Come down this end of the world V8 Supercars is 1000 times more popular than F1.

Wrong.The crowd at Albert Park is always considerably more than any Supercar race.The Saturday crowd is nearly double the number at race day at the Bathurst 1000.
TV ratings for that event are way bigger than any Supercar race except Bathurst.Ratings for live telecasts of other events are really not directly comparable because of time differences.
The Kool Aid drunk by Supercar fans has always placed that class of racing way above its position in the real world.Anyway the whole Supercars/Archer organisation was going bust even before the virus happened.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Maybe if silencing to WEC levels was introduced it would be easier to organise races in city centres.

They still make a nice noise....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqwyuLrSpmQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEmxchMic5w

But I guess you're right. Watching a Toyota, Audi or Porsche hybrid LMP1 accelerating away from Arnage Corner (as above) is (was) pretty awe-inspiring....

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

F1 just wouldn't be F1 if it was a spec series. We have enough of those in other series. Just keep the variety in Grand Prix racing, that's part of it

The end is nigh I reckon and currently there is no variety in F1. Without asserting too much thought to it I can predict the teams whose drivers will stand on the podium so they may as well save the money and have very restrictive rules to limit engineering needs.

[S griffin]

I meant variety in terms of cars and engines, although I do agree there are very few upsets in F1 atm

[Moneyseeker]

F1 business journo Christian Sylt reporting that JP Morgan allegedly thinks Liberty Media could breach its banking covenants - it is $3bn in debt.....

Could they have to sell F1 to raise cash and could this see the return of BE to buy F1 back again in another of his sell for top dollar and buy back for nothing deals?