New Corvette!!!

[Tristan]

"Audi TT? Not bad. At least you have some grasp of what driving a performance car is like."

Was around the Brands Hatch indy circuit too. Driven a Formula Palmer Audi as well as several Karts. That's about my limit!!

"Hairdressers car"

Agree completely. The one I drove wasn't even the Turbo version, so it wasn't great!!

"don't completely discard a car on their advice without trying it out first"

And I know what you say is true, BUT 1) the US hasn't got a *great* heretige when it comes to performance cars and 2) just scroll up to the top of the page. It's rare that a replacement model is EVEN UGLIER than the model it replaces!!

[Tristan]

(I LOVE rowing about cars, don't you?? )

[Lee Janotta]

Jeez, you guys have to pay a lot more for 'vettes than we do!

Here, the 405hp Z06 model carries an MSRP of $52,095. That compares very favorably to the 996 Carrera coupe at $69,365, the M3 at $48,195, and the grossly overpriced NSX at $89,765! And the imports tend to suffer from dealer markup due to low availability.

[garcon]

Originally posted by Tristan
(I LOVE rowing about cars, don't you?? )

Yep! Especially with someone who's invariably wrong!

[anorak]There isn't a non turbo Audi TT. Well, ok, there is now, the new, more powerful V6, but that's only just been launched. Before this, the TT used 180bhp and 225bhp versions of the same 1.8T 4 cylinder turbo unit. Actually, Audi have just launched a 150bhp version of the TT roadster (and coupe?), which again uses a version of the good ole 1.8T.

In fact, the 1.8T is available in one form or another in so many different VAG models I wouldn't be surprised if it is one of the most widely used engines out there, possibly behind VAG's equally prolific 1.9TDi.[/anorak]

[Lee Janotta]

Uhm... A non-turbo TT would be a Beetle, wouldn't it?

[Neil C]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Uhm... A non-turbo TT would be a Beetle, wouldn't it?

excellent, Lee.

Tris, it's not cars you like having a row about. It's US cars. Even your quote of EVO admits a prejudice against them. I wouldn't come right out and say you're wrong (oops, I guess I did in my last post!), but you are blinded by your Yankphobia. Is that a word? It should be.

[Neil C]

By the way, I had dinner a couple years ago with H. Feeman Thomas, The (yank) gentleman that designed the new beetle AND the Audi TT.

Guess who he works for now, Tristan? That relic of a dinosaur automaker, Chrysler. Excuse me, DAIMLER/Chrysler.

[shiny side up!]

Hehe, I just saw this thread... I am a fan of this car because I designed some of the production tools for it, and my company makes the entire windshield frame/crossmember assembly here in our plant. As such, I think it's a beautiful car!!!!

[Bluebottle]

I like it, but I think I prefer the last one.
Tris, I think it's not so much that 'Americans can't build sports cars', more a case of a different purpose and very different driving circumstances. I'm fairly sure a TVR would prove to be not practical on a long coast-to-coast run compared with a 'Vette or similar- in the same way a Corvette is probably hard work on Londons roads or the wonderfull A-roads throughout Britain where a TVR would be a blast!

[Tristan]

Actually I disagree. I reckon a Tuscan would relish the US, slamming the interstates and eating the coast of Big Sur for lunch. In its element, I'd say.

However, my point is made (IMnotsoHO) in that there is no NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN a credible American supercar. Look ABOVE the Corvette/Viper/etc what is there?? Not an awful lot. Frankly, you can keep your Saleens (and let's not mention the Vector) and whathaveyous - there is no equivalent to a Porsche, a Ferrari, a Maserati, or even, dare I say, a BMW.

I'll go further - the US has consistently failed to produce decent DRIVER'S cars. Sure, they have nice smooth tarmac and fewer bends, but still - what's the point of driving owning, say, a Lincoln or a Cadillac if, the moment you show it a corner, it handles like a blancmange?? Why not just buy something German instead, something that can accomodate you in the luxury to which you are accustomed (only with better taste and build quality) PLUS be able to thrash the pants of almost anything on the road?? (In fact, BMW certainly softens the suspension of its US export cars. WHY??) Take the Cadillac Seville STS - it was imported to the UK a few years back and, frankly, it looked like something crafted by a cave man yet floated like a car from the 25th century. You also needed to be the Emir of Kuwait to run it's ancient hulking great V8. WHY??

You CAN have your cake and eat it.

Or am I being overly harsh in saying "all American cars are rubbish"??

[Lee Janotta]

You're being too harsh, Tristan. By far, most of what we've produced is ****, but the same can be said of the French, and many would argue it to be true about the British auto industry (stupid British Leyland utterly ruined the reputation of the whole UK in the '70s and '80s).

Honestly, the Corvette's always been a GT, just too big and expensive to really be classified as a sports car. That's indicitive of the US auto industry. Cruising comfort and freeway passing power are valued more that sporty handling. Witness the trucks and SUVs clogging our highways.

I do think you'd be pleasantly suprised if you got behind the wheel of a current Corvette, though. Or even a recent Trans-Am or Camaro, for that matter. They're truly magnificent cars, and handle much better than you'd expect from us Yanks. The Corvette especially.

We've only actually mass-produced two true sports cars over all these years. First, there was the Chevrolet Corvair.

The early cars with their swing-axle suspension weren't very stable, and could get out of hand quickly. But in 1967, the car got fully independant rear suspension. Combine that with it's light weight, and the optional engines (the 140hp 4-carb, or the 180hp turbo), and the car was an excellent enthusiast's machine. It's still the only American-built car to win an international rally! Sadly, government regulation and scandal killed it off just as it was hitting it's stride.

The second attempt, the Pontiac Fiero, came out in 1984, after literally decades of begging from Pontiac to have their own two-seater.

The little two-seater used a steel spaceframe and plastic body, and offered fully-independant suspension front and rear. But, sadly, was hampered by GM's incredibly poor small-displacment engines. The 2.5L pushrod 4 initially offered in the GT model struggled to make 100hp! A year later, a 135hp V6 was offered, but the cast-iron lump added weight. Also, the V6 could not be ordered with a 5-speed, as GM's manual transaxles were far too weak to handle the torque. In 1988, Lotus was called in to completely revise the suspension, and the car finally began to live up to it's promise. But GM axed the car after the '88 model year.

I hope I haven't bored anyone with this.

[garcon]

Tristan,

Have you got this month's copy of evo yet?

Some interesting stuff in the news section about some rather excellent looking new offerings from Cadillac and Chrysler. Especially the Caddy - a 'compact' saloon, developed with hours and hours of testing in BMW's back yard (the 'Ring) aimed squarely at beating BMW at its own game. I even quite like its looks...

[Tristan]

Cheers Lee. I STILL remain to be convinced, however. I'm not saying that the US has not produced some classic motorcars, just hardly any decent SPORTS cars.

Garcon - have I got the latest copy of EVO??!! Look at the front cover.

Sure, the Caddy/Chrysler look OhhhKay, but 1) they'll not be sold in any great numbers outside the US which must surely mean that 2) they're like driving a hovercraft.

Put it in context with what this month's copy is STUFFED FULL of - proper cars. Ignoring the Enzo (*thump*), what about that Murcielago article??!! Fabulous.

[garcon]

Originally posted by Tristan
Garcon - have I got the latest copy of EVO??!! Look at the front cover.

I guessed you might have

Not read the Enzo article yet, or all the Murcielago one - I'm saving the best til last. But the latter typifies why I love evo - no other mag (with the possible exception of TG on a good day) would even consider doing that with a Lamborghini... And boy does it look good when it's filthy

Have you got this month's Top Gear? It also features the Enzo... and the collected wit and wisdom of JC... not decided whether to bother yet.

[Tristan]

Nah. Sod Top Gear magazine. I was *slightly* tempted by Car's big article on Jay Kay's black Enzo (it HAS to be black for me too), but again. I'm not THAT big a geek that I feel the need to buy more than one car magazine per month.

[Dick Spanner]

Christ, I buy EVO and Autocar. That's 5 mag's a month which makes me Geeky McGeek from Geekhampton, Geekshire in Geekland. I'm getting really impatient to know A. What David Yu's new car is, and B. When the hell Barker is going to unveil project Capri, it's a beasty.
(Apologies to those from foreign climes who've never read EVO)

Just to make some reference to the thread, I've just had another look at the pic and it look's a tiny bit less bland than it did when I first looked at it, it could be that a different colour would imrove it no end.

[Tristan]

Black on red leather, I think... or is that too... um... thingey??

[Dick Spanner]

Black with Red's not bad, I'm thinking Gun metal grey with dark red leather and anthracite alloy's (and having followed the link to the newspaper article, I'd go for the coupe not the droptop).

[Lee Janotta]

Red leather is for pensioners and pimps/cocaine dealers!!!

[Tristan]

...unless it's in an ITALIAN car. In which case it's OK. In an Alfa Romeo it's law in certain parts of Italy. OK, I'm lying, but...

God that Corvette looks awful!!

[Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Tristan
Black on red leather, I think... or is that too... um... thingey??

Too thingy? More likely a bit whasname!

[Tristan]

"Guess who he works for now, Tristan? That relic of a dinosaur automaker, Chrysler."

Forgot to post back - He's designed this Crossblade, hasn't he?? Urgh. I mean, gimme a break. It's based on the OLD SLK!! Which was designed for the American market anyway and was thus RUBBISH. You'd get a more engaging driving experience in a shopping trolley.

The Beetle too - designed in America, by Americans, for Americans. And it shows - a snail's faster and probably more taughtly sprung. A similar product is the new Mini - designed in Europe, by Eurpeans, for Europeans. The result - a DRIVERS car. Why?? Because it HAD to be to sell. The Beetle was designed to go up and down and look great. The Mini was desigend to look great and go around corners.

BUT DON'T GET ME WRONG. I ADMIRE the new Beetle hugely. I think it's a great product. I don't DISLIKE (many) US cars. In the US I've been in Lincolns, Chryslers... I went in a Taxi called a Ford "Crown Victoria" (yes, it's an AWFUL AWFUL name, but...) which kinda served a purpose - the fact it was the size of a mobile island meant loads of legroom!! The seats were the size of an armchair!! It may look as if it was penned in 1975, but the fact it rode like a bouncey castle actually made for a comfortable (if nausea-inducing) experience. I'm sure on an interstate it would be the ideal cruiser.

It's just that one thing US cars aren't are DRIVERS cars. In the US it doesn't make marketing sense. People aren't interested. The case is proved by the current (and it appears future) Corvette.

[Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Tristan
He's designed this Crossblade, hasn't he?? Urgh. I mean, gimme a break. It's based on the OLD SLK!! Which was designed for the American market anyway and was thus RUBBISH. You'd get a more engaging driving experience in a shopping trolley.

So you've driven one then? Tell us more about you're experiance? (the car, not the shopping trolly, I don't believe you've ever driven a shopping trolly! )

[garcon]

There really is nothing else for it. Tristan, we demand that you reserve any further judgement on the relative driving characteristics of any vehicles until you've actually driven them. We may be persuaded to concede that several hours virtual thrashing on Gran Turismo 4 (when it comes out) will suffice. Because, apparently, it's dead realistic, like.

Did you read the article about GT4? A work colleague was one of the lucky souls to go to Millbrook a few weeks back and have his car (a TVR) immortalised for millions to see/hear/drive in the game.

[Tristan]

Oh poo to you all!!