'Best' place to take your ARDS?

[EdLeake]

It's pretty hard to get the wrong line around Brans!

[R59]

I've seen some very interesting lines around Brands!! Not ones that I'd teach!

[MGDavid]

you'd feel a bit daft if you shelled out for ARDS first and then the medical uncovered a problem you were unaware of.....

[terence]

Originally Posted by R59

I've seen some very interesting lines around Brands!! Not ones that I'd teach!

I'm sure thats not restricted to just Brands.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by al_sami

Brands isnt a bad place, just one instructor I did not see eye to eye with.. watch out for him though, he has long hair, but dont know his name.

He gave me 3 laps and did not give the chance to drive uninterupted, he was always pulling at the wheel and put me off the whole test.

What's wrong with long haired instructors ?

[terence]

It very off putting when your trying to learn the "Racing Line" Gordon.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by MikeHart

L
I know some of you may baulk at this, but I'm a fairly keen sim racer and, having done a track day round the Silverstone GP circuit, I can honestly say, with the advent of GPS and laser mapping of the tracks they are uncannily realistic these days. Whilst driving on a sim takes a very different approach to driving an actual car, there was no doubt in my mind that the hundreds of laps I've done round the track on rFactor meant after all of one lap I was into the groove. Rather handily, the south circuit exists on it too, so several hours may have to be spent in a Corvette C6

Oh Dear God, the sim racers are, in general, the most horrific, erratic, scary drivers on track. An bunch of clueless noobs, especially the younger ones. I know a few instructors in the UK who would agree as well.

Yes sims may be a benefit for learning a track, but the reality of actually driving on track is way different.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by al_sami

Brands isnt a bad place, just one instructor I did not see eye to eye with.. watch out for him though, he has long hair, but dont know his name.

He gave me 3 laps and did not give the chance to drive uninterupted, he was always pulling at the wheel and put me off the whole test.

Don't you hate that?

I follow the principle hands and feet follow the eyes. Depending on the car, I try to sit in a way my hands reaching across can be directly seen by the driver and what I do is point in the direction I want them to go. By pointing, they naturally look where I am pointing and their hands and feet follow. While other instructors are spinning or having off track excursions, I've never had a driver damage a car under my instruction. Only as a last resort do I put my hands on the steering wheel. For instance, if understeer happens the natural tendency for the uninformed is input more steering when they really need to unwind the wheel and restore grip to the front tires, so I might reach over and yank the wheel to do that.

[onenastyviper]

I passed my ARDS at Three Sisters having never been on a track anywhere.
OK, not exactly high speed being a small track but the tightness of it certainly gave me an idea of what it is to be on the right line. I think I achieved the line about 1% of the time, the rest was just listening and trying to apply what the instructor told me...I liked it when he said that I should brake harder so that he reaches the edges of his seat belt.

The downside of the ARDS test as is is that it is just a test, a few sighter laps then the examined laps and the written exam. It was over so quickly but I really enjoyed it.

As for sim racers, it is racing on the playstation (with a steering wheel of course not the rubbish joypad) which inspired me to take the steps into racing. I just hope I am not erratic as I can see how bad that can be, although taking the ARDS test for my license then going into a club formula ford test at the new anglesey circuit having never driven a racing car was, erm, interesting...I still smile thinking about it.

PK

[terence]

Only ever tried SIM once,it is so far removed from the real thing I really cannot see the point.Sure,you MIGHT learn where a particular track might go,but there is one thing in driving say the Nurburgring and doing it SIM Style,on a TV screen ,you have no idea of the severity of some of the tracks undulation level,s.

[MikeHart]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Only ever tried SIM once,it is so far removed from the real thing I really cannot see the point.Sure,you MIGHT learn where a particular track might go,but there is one thing in driving say the Nurburgring and doing it SIM Style,on a TV screen ,you have no idea of the severity of some of the tracks undulation level,s.

I could see someone was going to make a comment like that! What 'sim' did you try by the way? As I said in my first post, it's a very different driving technique, but I'm afraid that you'll find that people who are truely good at racing online in sims are generally pretty decent in reality, and a good number of drivers use rFactor and Live For Speed. I've raced Sean Edwards (2006 FIA GT3 champion) on rFactor a couple of times, and I was having a good battle with the 2008 winner of the Clio Cup scholarship the other day too on Live For Speed. I get the feeling far to many racers have a go at one or two mainstream games or sims, spin off on the first lap because they're not used to it and dismiss them as crap. Once you learn to be uber smooth and get used to feeling what's going on through the rim of a decent Force Feedback steering wheel, then you'll find that they're actually pretty good.

No, they're not totally realistic, but they teach you to be smooth, accurate and progressive, something which a lot of novice drivers lack. In addition to this, racing against people online (in LFS in particular) is brilliant race practice. Planning overtaking has little to do with the actual handling of a car, and when you're in a race where the top 10 is separated by 3tenths of a second it's not exactly easy to get past. Where else can you get that practice other than an actual race?

Oh Dear God, the sim racers are, in general, the most horrific, erratic, scary drivers on track. An bunch of clueless noobs, especially the younger ones. I know a few instructors in the UK who would agree as well.

Yes sims may be a benefit for learning a track, but the reality of actually driving on track is way different.

Those that drive like idiots are most likely Gran Turismo players which I can guarantee you is about as close to a Sim as a Caparo T1 is to an F1 car. There are over 10,000 registered online racers for LFS, with an average age of 26, so I'd hazzard a guess that far more 'simmers' have passed through the hands of many an instructor without them knowing. The one's that proudly announce they can do the Nurburgring in 6mins are likely to be the crap ones and there is no difference IMO than those who announce they can do a handbrake turn in their Saxo and therefore are the next Schumacher.

Indeed a sim is different, but it's also fairly similar in some cases. From personal experience, grip levels, handling characteristics and driving technique for the Formula Student car in Live For Speed is identical to that which I apply when driving our car for real. Having had very little chance to test the car due to technical issues, I spent a week practicing the Formula Student Germany course on the game and ended up setting the 6th fastest time (out of 43 who set a time) of the competition first time out in a car that was neither the most powerful or best set up (to be fair....all we actually managed was to corner weight it!).

Every successful modern racing car is simulated on computer first using Ricardo Wave, Catia/Solidworks and Ansys and I'm sure you'd all admit that it makes the cars faster. These programmes aren't 100% accurate but they all help improve them......why therefore ignore a tool which is freely available that can help you improve your technique for next to no money at all! I should be putting you all off it and keeping the advantage for myself, but I think it's silly not to take advantage of something which can do so much good!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by MikeHart

I could see someone was going to make a comment like that! What 'sim' did you try by the way? As I said in my first post, it's a very different driving technique, but I'm afraid that you'll find that people who are truely good at racing online in sims are generally pretty decent in reality, and a good number of drivers use rFactor and Live For Speed. I've raced Sean Edwards (2006 FIA GT3 champion) on rFactor a couple of times, and I was having a good battle with the 2008 winner of the Clio Cup scholarship the other day too on Live For Speed. I get the feeling far to many racers have a go at one or two mainstream games or sims, spin off on the first lap because they're not used to it and dismiss them as crap. Once you learn to be uber smooth and get used to feeling what's going on through the rim of a decent Force Feedback steering wheel, then you'll find that they're actually pretty good.

No, they're not totally realistic, but they teach you to be smooth, accurate and progressive, something which a lot of novice drivers lack. In addition to this, racing against people online (in LFS in particular) is brilliant race practice. Planning overtaking has little to do with the actual handling of a car, and when you're in a race where the top 10 is separated by 3tenths of a second it's not exactly easy to get past. Where else can you get that practice other than an actual race?



Those that drive like idiots are most likely Gran Turismo players which I can guarantee you is about as close to a Sim as a Caparo T1 is to an F1 car. There are over 10,000 registered online racers for LFS, with an average age of 26, so I'd hazzard a guess that far more 'simmers' have passed through the hands of many an instructor without them knowing. The one's that proudly announce they can do the Nurburgring in 6mins are likely to be the crap ones and there is no difference IMO than those who announce they can do a handbrake turn in their Saxo and therefore are the next Schumacher.

Indeed a sim is different, but it's also fairly similar in some cases. From personal experience, grip levels, handling characteristics and driving technique for the Formula Student car in Live For Speed is identical to that which I apply when driving our car for real. Having had very little chance to test the car due to technical issues, I spent a week practicing the Formula Student Germany course on the game and ended up setting the 6th fastest time (out of 43 who set a time) of the competition first time out in a car that was neither the most powerful or best set up (to be fair....all we actually managed was to corner weight it!).

Every successful modern racing car is simulated on computer first using Ricardo Wave, Catia/Solidworks and Ansys and I'm sure you'd all admit that it makes the cars faster. These programmes aren't 100% accurate but they all help improve them......why therefore ignore a tool which is freely available that can help you improve your technique for next to no money at all! I should be putting you all off it and keeping the advantage for myself, but I think it's silly not to take advantage of something which can do so much good!

Oh no question (good) computer simulations can be excellent training tools. I wouldn't dispute that at all. It's those that use them as entertainment and have a distorted perception of reality when they hit the track is the problem. In sims you can crash and smash all you want with no consequences and unfortunately some carry over that cavalier attitude to the track.

I get a good chuckle sometimes when people tell me "it's not like the video games". Yeah no sheet.

[R59]

SIM's have their place. If they are good - track detail can be exact, and it can be a good pointer for learning the racing line.

Stuart Saggers - a name from the past - raced at Spa, having never been there before, in Formula 2000 (I think it was called), set pole, and won the race. He used the old Formula One Grand Prix game for the PC, an early F1 sim, back in the days of Lotus in F1!!
Mind you, he had enough talent to carry him as well. Shame he couldn't get the budget to continue further up the tree.

Rob.

[terence]

Remote "Racing" gives nothing in the way of developing smoothness,for the plain fact that sitting in an arm chair does not give any feel of cornering/braking/accelerating etc,sure you may be able to get an idea as to where the track goes,but there is no substitute for keeping it "Real".

[R59]

That's very true. My comment was relating to learning the line.
Most programmers have consulted well in getting the "line" built into the program (for dummy mode!).
There is no substitute for reality. Make sure though, that the stone on the side of the track that you are using for a braking point is actually a stone, and not a hedgehog.... moving closer to the corner every minute......

Rob.

[MikeHart]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Remote "Racing" gives nothing in the way of developing smoothness,for the plain fact that sitting in an arm chair does not give any feel of cornering/braking/accelerating etc,sure you may be able to get an idea as to where the track goes,but there is no substitute for keeping it "Real".

With a Force Feedback wheel you get 50% of the feeling. In an actual car, the wheel generally tells you about understeer and the seat tells you about oversteer (mainly due to your seating position in relation to the cars center of rotation). Furthermore, if you're not smooth, it's impossible to be fast or stay on track in a sim. I really think you should have a go on a modern well set up Sim before you completely dissmiss it as only giving you an idea of where the track goes! With laser scanning, the tracks are 100% accurate including bumps in the track surface. See here for how it's done: http://www.iracing.com/technology_scanning.htm

iRacing is infact being developed for use the Skip Barber racing school, so if one of the biggest names in race driver tuition in the States is investing money in it, I would hardly imagine that they think it's only good for sort of learning the track!

[Austinspace75]

SIMS are no match for real driving. But I've learned a tremendous amount from playing them. You have to take them seriously, and then they are VERY useful.
They teach you an excellent mental approach to fast driving that is directly applicable in my view. Ok, you can't get hurt or damage expensive machinery. But the thing that makes a real race driver consistant and safe while being quick, isn't just his fear of getting hurt. It is largely his fear of messing up the lap/race and losing time.

SIMS inherently involve the same equation: Messing up/going off = lost time = crap result.

Anything that has the potential to do that without risking yourself or anyone else and costs relatively little, is a very worthwhile tool to have available. In addition to this, the quality and detail of the circuit modelling these days is such that the amount that can be learned about a circuit before driving it for real should not be underestimated. Again, a very useful tool used by top notch drivers for years now.

Its simple really. Those that have played them seriously, appreciate the tangible benefits that they can bring. Those that haven't played them seriously won't appreciate them, and as such often seem to simply dismiss them as useless.

[midgetman]

I've learned a couple of circuits on PC/Playstation, in as much as I knew which way round the corners go, so I don't turn left in a right hander or whatever, it's just like boning up on your client before you go into an important sales meeting. And it works.

What it ISN'T, no matter how good your toy steering wheel may be, is a simulator. You don't feel cambers, bumps, G-Forces, all the things that make real racing really exciting. The excitement of being side-by-side at over 100mph at the 'Ring for a mile or more, seeing your adversary in peripheral vision. The little jump as you go over the Mountain at Cadwell. The huge compression as you go down Paddock Hill Bend at Brands.

You don't feel the car sliding, that moment of fear as you realised you turned in too quick, that huge bang up your spine because you went over a kerb, the bruises on your knees from the roll cage, the soggy race suit in a wet race, the lack of vision when your visor steams up.......hmmm, SIM racing might have some thing going for it! LOL!!

Each to their own as they say. Mikehart, if you enjoy it good on you, but computer racing's not for me. But I'll not decry it.

[terence]

Exactly my point Midgetman,sofas dont move.

[MikeHart]

Originally Posted by midgetman

What it ISN'T, no matter how good your toy steering wheel may be, is a simulator. You don't feel cambers, bumps, G-Forces, all the things that make real racing really exciting. The excitement of being side-by-side at over 100mph at the 'Ring for a mile or more, seeing your adversary in peripheral vision. The little jump as you go over the Mountain at Cadwell. The huge compression as you go down Paddock Hill Bend at Brands.

You don't feel the car sliding, that moment of fear as you realised you turned in too quick, that huge bang up your spine because you went over a kerb, the bruises on your knees from the roll cage, the soggy race suit in a wet race, the lack of vision when your visor steams up.......hmmm, SIM racing might have some thing going for it! LOL!!

You see this is where I feel you're wrong. As Austinspace75 will probably agree, a modern Sim does in fact simulate most of this now, albeit the G-Forces. A Logitech G25 wheel (which also incidentally has weighted throttle, brake and clutch pedals) can exert a pretty serious amount of force that can come fairly close to replicating the amount of force that is exerted by a real steering system, and furthermore, with incredibly quick response too so you can feel such things as camber change and track bumps. What is more, the physics engines in games like Live For Speed actually calculate the forces exerted onto the steering column as a result of the tyre interaction with the road surface, and hence you can feel the contact patch shift around and also the transfer of torque on the front wheels in a FWD car and the locking of brakes under deceleration. The fact that if you race online, you're racing against real people means the elite do actually do the same things that people do on a track, ie block, take the wide line in, slipstream, outbrake etc. And they also don't take kindly to 'wreckers' as they are known as who just crash into people to get past. Clean racing is the name of the game and whilst you don't get killed if you do take someone out, you'll probably get banned from racing!

As I said, modern laser mapping of tracks means that it's not just a case of 'knowing which way round a track goes'. You can actually learn where the bumps that unsettle a car under braking are, and in many now, repeatedly launching your car off a huge kerb will damage your suspension enough to knock the tracking out and hence result in rather dodgy handling. Have a look at this comparison of racing simulators which will illustrate quite how much detail the best ones go in to. You can actually view live the suspension geomtry changes in LFS.

I don't necessarly expect anyone to all of a sudden go 'yes you're right'. That wouldn't be the point of an reasoned debate on a topic, but I think those that are happy to dismiss proper racing games as things that geeky 14 year olds do and do nothing but teach you which way round to go on a track are as bad as members of the driving public who think they could win the F1 world championsip. And for reference, anything on a console is not a Sim, so that includes the Gran Turismo series. They are probably about 7 or 8 years behind PC based sims, the leaders currently being:

Live For Speed S2
rFactor
NetKarPro

Many of these are infact far more realistic than Williams 'Simulator' that was featured on ITV last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C6g_0c2nhI

[MikeHart]

By the way...just to say that despite my enjoyment of sims, there is no doubt that 100% of the time, I'd choose a real racing car if I had the option. Sadly, if I feel like a bit of practice on a Weds night, I don't have a track and car in the back of my garden to do that in!

[terence]

Give it time.

[GORDON STREETER]

Just to chuck my tuppence worth in it works well the other way round, as my nephew found out when I trounced him on his sim on tracks he hadn't tried that I had actually raced on properly !

[terence]

Old School Gordon,Its called, Hands On Experience.

[ScoopJumps]

I do like racing games but I have lost interest in spending hundreds of pounds on the latest consoles or computer hardware to play them.

A favourite for me (and the hardcore gamers will laugh here) is the old TOCA Touring Car games. I play TOCA 2 almost every day. Whilst it helps learn the track one thing I noticed is at Snetterton when I did my ARDS is I was turning in to early for turn 1. I was trying to treat it as a double apex like on the game but in reality a wide entry with a precise radius for a late apex is the way to do it (according to my instructor). It was so ingrained I kept doing it and in the end the instructor held the steering wheel a bit to stop me turning in too early.

I don't know whether this is a result of the games inaccuracy or that the circuit has changed since (is an old game).

Still enjoy it though as do my nephews except I have to leave the room as they insist on ramming everyone.