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Old 24 Apr 2019, 09:53 (Ref:3899348)   #301
Mixer
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The VT was slower in a straight line because it was a lot wider than the VS

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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:22 (Ref:3899357)   #302
gtcapri
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Where was all this commentary in 2006-2009 while 888 Fords were winning the championship and Bathurst?

Even 2010 was won in a 888-built car for DJR.

But all we hear from Ford fans now is how the series is 888/Holden biased, was it 888/Ford biased before? You can't have this both ways...

Despite the claims, the Commodore never dominated the series, 888 dominated the series, in both marques.

The Mustang however saw peanuts leap up 15 spots in the championship standings, and grabbing podium spots even when they could barely get out of their own way. The thing was an own goal through an outdated and flawed homologation process, with a car that clearly departed from the production car for performance reasons, and in hindsight the series shouldn't have let it be homologated as it was, especially with the rear wing end plates. These provide a huge cornering stability and therefore tyre wear benefit, and is in no way measured by the straight line testing.

Ludo also has plenty of from for creative rule interpretation, but nothing as dodgy or dangerous as 25kg mufflers.

The series has plenty of form for mid-season changes against both makes, so spare me the "Holden has never been penalised" malarkey. People like Bowe complaining about the squeaky wheel are comical. DJR and BJR were the biggest whingers in the AU era, then SBR showed them how it was done with the BA - and then 888 came along.

888's FG particularly was nigh on unbeatable, and was probably the best ever Supercar - in factory and customer hands. Maybe we'll never see a customer car win the series again.
Where was complaining when SBR and 888 dominated in Fords? It was coming from HRT fans. Short memory or convenient?

Really? Holden has never dominated? How many races did the AU ever win?
In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!

Borrowed from FF.

PARITY since Project Blueprint in 2003

* RACE WINS
- Holden 296, Ford 195

* BATHURST
- Holden 11, Ford 5

* DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP
- Holden 8, Ford 8

* MANUFACTURERS TITLES
- Holden 12, Ford 4

It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!

So a peanut team is NOT allowed to improve with a new model? Must of missed that memo. So must've MSR and Erebus. Remember 888 have uncharacteristically tripped over themselves a lot this season as well. Even so Jamie was second in the championship until PI.

Nobody here has any proof on wing plates including the series itself because it hasn't been tested yet!!

The car that everyone is whinging about (Mustang) was built to the rules and approved. In the same way 888 pushed the limits to the rule book, so has DJR Penske. So where did the current whining coming from about the Mustang? Mixer hasn't stopped. Everything from vehicle design to paint jobs.

Lead filled mufflers or lead lining between heat shield and floor. Which ones illegal and which ones more dangerous? Flexing splitters rear wings, how far do you want to go? As you know it's innovation when your teams using it, cheating when the opposition thinks of it first.

In fact where have I said Holden have never been nobbled? Of course they have. If you were paying attention In fact I'm one of the few on here that thinks Little and Burgess is a great addition, if not for the ham fisted way Supercars is handling the affair then things would be fine.

888 nigh unbeatable in FG's? Yet they were!! As you say DJR did in one of 888's much like Hazelwood is starting to do this year in Whincups Commodore from last year. Every great team eventually slides. DJR/SBR/HRT and now 888. Face it the days of customer cars winning championships disappeared long before this century, mores the pity. Which means what happens if Holden pull the plug or really reduces the budget?

Jerico, if the Ford fans are cry cry whinge whinge, where did the whinging over the Mustang originate from?? Wouldn't be Holden or its fans would it? If it werent for them we wouldn't be visiting parity arguments over the Mustang. Might be a shock to you but all sides whinge, including yours.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:27 (Ref:3899358)   #303
Umai Naa
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Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
How shortsighted must one be, to insist that it's simply a Holden Vs Ford matter?
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:36 (Ref:3899359)   #304
gtcapri
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
How shortsighted must one be, to insist that it's simply a Holden Vs Ford matter?
Did we not agree in the beginning that if Holden fans were one side and the Ford fans were on the other, where were the Nissan fans going to sit?? Had Supercars got its act together a lot sooner we'd have Volvo's, Mercs and possibly Hyundais competing on fairly even terms with Holden and Ford. Alas it didn't happen soon enough. That wouldve been far better.

TCR might be the better alternative?
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:51 (Ref:3899362)   #305
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Originally Posted by gtcapri View Post
Where was complaining when SBR and 888 dominated in Fords? It was coming from HRT fans. Short memory or convenient?

Really? Holden has never dominated? How many races did the AU ever win?
In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!

Borrowed from FF.

PARITY since Project Blueprint in 2003

* RACE WINS
- Holden 296, Ford 195

* BATHURST
- Holden 11, Ford 5

* DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP
- Holden 8, Ford 8

* MANUFACTURERS TITLES
- Holden 12, Ford 4

It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!

So a peanut team is NOT allowed to improve with a new model? Must of missed that memo. So must've MSR and Erebus. Remember 888 have uncharacteristically tripped over themselves a lot this season as well. Even so Jamie was second in the championship until PI.

Nobody here has any proof on wing plates including the series itself because it hasn't been tested yet!!

The car that everyone is whinging about (Mustang) was built to the rules and approved. In the same way 888 pushed the limits to the rule book, so has DJR Penske. So where did the current whining coming from about the Mustang? Mixer hasn't stopped. Everything from vehicle design to paint jobs.

Lead filled mufflers or lead lining between heat shield and floor. Which ones illegal and which ones more dangerous? Flexing splitters rear wings, how far do you want to go? As you know it's innovation when your teams using it, cheating when the opposition thinks of it first.

In fact where have I said Holden have never been nobbled? Of course they have. If you were paying attention In fact I'm one of the few on here that thinks Little and Burgess is a great addition, if not for the ham fisted way Supercars is handling the affair then things would be fine.

888 nigh unbeatable in FG's? Yet they were!! As you say DJR did in one of 888's much like Hazelwood is starting to do this year in Whincups Commodore from last year. Every great team eventually slides. DJR/SBR/HRT and now 888. Face it the days of customer cars winning championships disappeared long before this century, mores the pity. Which means what happens if Holden pull the plug or really reduces the budget?

Jerico, if the Ford fans are cry cry whinge whinge, where did the whinging over the Mustang originate from?? Wouldn't be Holden or its fans would it? If it werent for them we wouldn't be visiting parity arguments over the Mustang. Might be a shock to you but all sides whinge, including yours.
We need a like button.

I follow Supercars as a whole. Yeah we might be biased with who we like. But maybe mixing it up the front is what’s needed.

888 are struggling with setup up. And whether they’re are the major players in the complaint to Supercars , who knows. But concentrating on your own garage is what each team needs to do.

The Mustang is out front but again every new car that hits the track always has that advantage of the unknown until we get a few races in.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:57 (Ref:3899363)   #306
Umai Naa
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Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by gtcapri View Post
Did we not agree in the beginning that if Holden fans were one side and the Ford fans were on the other, where were the Nissan fans going to sit?? Had Supercars got its act together a lot sooner we'd have Volvo's, Mercs and possibly Hyundais competing on fairly even terms with Holden and Ford. Alas it didn't happen soon enough. That wouldve been far better.

TCR might be the better alternative?
TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season.

So perhaps that's not the answer?
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 12:54 (Ref:3899377)   #307
Jack65
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Originally Posted by gtcapri View Post
It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!
In 2011 DJR basically imploded after the bust up with Charlie resulting in James Courtney, Adrian Burgess and some other key personnel leaving the building. FPR meanwhile appeared to be finding new ways to trip over their own feet at that time. The FG and VF in 2016, were exactly the same as 2015 when FPR had won the championship, so parity wasn't the issue there.

Seems that people fall into one of three camps:
*one eyed Ford supporters who think the whole thing is a stitch up
*one eyed Holden supporters who think that Ford is cheating and that they deserve everything they get
*more pragmatic supporters who understand that it is a parity formula and that V8SC have made a hash of the homologation process. While mid-season changes are not a great look, they realise that something has to be done

Seems to be members of the former 2 groups who are doing all the ranting, while those in the latter are more measured in their comments.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 13:39 (Ref:3899388)   #308
V8 Fireworks
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the ZB’s expected aerodynamic advantages have clearly convinced [Holden runners] to make the switch, despite complaints about the cost T8 has been charging for parts.
https://www.motoring.com.au/motorspo...vealed-110646/

The baffling part is whether the ZB has aerodynamic advantages over the VF Commodore (which were claimed by 888 when they realised it) and, if so, why parity adjustments are not being made to the ZB as well to bring it into line with the VF and FGX?

All five models remain eligible, and as many posters say it is crucial that cornerstone technical parity must be achieved between them to prevent a "development war".

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Originally Posted by Jack65 View Post
V8SC have made a hash of the homologation process
Expect that all cars complied with the regulations (downforce and drag at 200kpg, confirmed by runway test) and were signed off. Therefore it seems, instead, that it was a highly successful homologation process!

Tickford -- one of the absolute fines, and most skilled teams in the series -- were struggling to get on the podium with Mustang at PI, showing clearly that there is no advantage at all with Mustang. Instead, podiums were shared between Commodore, Altima and Mustang which IMO showed that technical parity was already clearly evident!

[Of course testing to confirm equivalence to FGX and VF still needs to be carried out!]

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while those in the latter are more measured in their comments.
Given DJRTP, regarded widely as the most skilled team in the series by far, were barely able to win at PI and being already hurried by lesser runners, are you not worried the unqualified and unsubstantiated adjustments may unfairly disadvantage DJRTP and deny them their deserved Bathurst and championship victories?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 24 Apr 2019 at 13:49.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 18:29 (Ref:3899451)   #309
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For me it is not a 'Commodore vs a Mustang' it is the pressure that is bought to bear by one team and one team owner. They must be **** scared of them, obviously Dane or one of his cohorts caught someone humping a cat at some point
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 19:51 (Ref:3899468)   #310
Compromised
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New model comes in - homologation required

Make changes to a model - no homologation required

Very strange from a procedural point of view - if you use the homologation testing for new cars, it kind of follows that any car requiring mid season changes would need re-homologation no? How exactly do you know the modifications were adequate/excessive/not enough? Just use the next championship round as a homologation test I guess?

Not like this year's championship doesn't have a huge, Mustang-rear-wing sized asterisk next to it anyway................. .................................

Last edited by Compromised; 24 Apr 2019 at 20:03.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 20:32 (Ref:3899474)   #311
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season.

So perhaps that's not the answer?
Yet to be seen I guess. TCR's way of handling their parity problems may have a more professional approach than Supercars. I guess we'll find out soon enough. One positive is at least there are more manufacturers involved and they aren't all that much slower than Supercars.

I applaud Supercars in the fact they have finally recognised the parity process is hopelessly flawed and steps are being made to rectify it. But I think we can all agree their methods of handling things needs more work and transparency if they want to continue to move forward. We can't change the past, but we can the future.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 21:42 (Ref:3899485)   #312
Umai Naa
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Yet to be seen I guess. TCR's way of handling their parity problems may have a more professional approach than Supercars. I guess we'll find out soon enough. One positive is at least there are more manufacturers involved and they aren't all that much slower than Supercars.

I applaud Supercars in the fact they have finally recognised the parity process is hopelessly flawed and steps are being made to rectify it. But I think we can all agree their methods of handling things needs more work and transparency if they want to continue to move forward. We can't change the past, but we can the future.
Unless you're the WTCC and start demanding parity changes at the last minute that aren't practical.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 02:36 (Ref:3899497)   #313
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Originally Posted by gtcapri View Post
In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!
There was never a parity issue with the AU, it was just a sack of crap. The front splitter was completely flawed and you couldn't run over a blade of grass without losing the entire front splitter. Only fixed by grafting the bottom of the VT splitter to it. Also you strangely ignore the AU running a second faster the next year in the Dunlop series... The car was fine after the splitter change, but the teams at the time could never get on top of it.

Then SBR came out after it and thumped everybody with their BA.

if Ford hadn't coughed up 888, Ford would have won just about everything for the last 15 years, and the blame for that wholely rests at Ford's feet. 888 has dominated more or less since their entry, and dominated for longer than DJR, HRT or SBR were able to in their respective tenures. Maybe we're seeing another one of those changes now.

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TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season. So perhaps that's not the answer?
How about the Hyundais having their boost cut and being disqualified from quali a while back, imagine that happening in Supercars?
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 03:03 (Ref:3899498)   #314
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How about the Hyundais having their boost cut and being disqualified from quali a while back, imagine that happening in Supercars?
Refer to my previous post.

WTCR/WTCC (FIA) uses the global TCR BOP as a starting point. They then decided to implement their own additional measures including boost limits against the advice of WSC (TCR catagory management), which backfired spectacularly. The cars in most if not all cases, are boost-managed by the ECU. To alter the boost settings requires a complete remap, however the parameters are locked at the time of homologation at the start of the season when all cars are tested back-to-back on track, in the wind tunnel, and on the dyno.

I think Honda was also involved. To do a complete remap of the ECUs of half a dozen cars or thereabouts from the two camps by their respective tuning partners, wasn't practical at such short notice (it was mandated at the actual race meeting, from memory). Drivers were actually lifting and short-shifting to avoid going beyond the new maximum boost pressure.

Under normal TCR-sanctioned competition, it's only the minimum ride height and weight that are adjusted throughout the season. In comparision to Supercars, they do as much as they can to get the recipie right at the start of the year. If a manufacturer isn't showing their full hand, or are perhaps foxing, the catagory has ways of evening things out.
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Old 25 Apr 2019, 04:46 (Ref:3899505)   #315
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
https://www.motoring.com.au/motorspo...vealed-110646/

The baffling part is whether the ZB has aerodynamic advantages over the VF Commodore (which were claimed by 888 when they realised it) and, if so, why parity adjustments are not being made to the ZB as well to bring it into line with the VF and FGX?

To me, this is the key point. The Commodore had an undoubted aero advantage last year, and to get the Falcons to the same speed meant running almost no wing, which only 1 driver in a Falcon could master and went on to win the Championship, in spite of this disadvantage. No aero adjustment was made in the name of parity then. Now Ford has gone to the next step and all hell breaks loose and everyone asks for parity.

Although it may be the best thing to do from a sporting equality point of view, it gives all the appearance of favouritism to Holden runners and goes back to the bad old days of Group C in the early 1980s when he who whinged the loudest got the concessions they wanted.
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